Cessna 172 missing over North Sea

[Katamarino]

The building is nothing to do with the crash.

[patowalker]

They were still over sea………..hence the involvement of the coast guard.

... and HM Coastguard too, in Sikorsky G-BIMU.

[BackPacker]

If they landed where I think they landed (and all reports seem to suggest so) then there is no building or any other substantial structure to hit whatsoever over there.

The Rotterdam Port Authority is reclaiming a significant amount of land from the sea, intended as extension to the Rotterdam Harbor. We fly over that area regularly (in fact my aerobatics sortie yesterday was planned right over there, until I learned about the sea fog and decided to move a few nm inland). At the moment all the sand has been put up and they are working on the harbor wall structures. There are also a few (temporary I assume) roads visible that I have considered as an emergency landing site (in case of an aeros mishap for instance).

But the worst you can hit is construction equipment like cranes, lorries and such, and those are not parked in the middle of the sandy areas, but along the edges. Especially on a public holiday.

Here's the information site. The picture on the front page gives you a pretty good idea on what it looks like today. Home

[Privatecaptain]

IMC training and IR rated FIs should be mandatory for every PPL. Unusual attitudes under the hood should be equally mandatory.

It also helps not only to have IR or IMC training under VMC conditions, but to be actually in the clouds and experience that. It's a big difference to flying 'under the hood'

[achimha]

It also helps not only to have IR or IMC training under VMC conditions, but to be actually in the clouds and experience that. It's a big difference to flying 'under the hood'

Agree! However, it's illegal. In order to penetrate the clouds, you have file an IFR flight plan. In order to do that your instructor needs to be an IR instructor and you have to be registered as an instrument student.

My instructor has done it to practice 180° turns and to get a feeling (very different thing doing this under the hood in VMC or in a turbulent cumulus cloud). I'm very thankful for the experience but he was breaking the rules. Stupid!

[mad_jock]

Agree! However, it's illegal. In order to penetrate the clouds, you have file an IFR flight plan

Not in the UK.

And you don't need an IR to file an IFR flight plan.

You can be quite legal flying in and out of cloud not speaking to anyone. In fact nobody would know you were even in cloud.

And alot of instructors in the UK have an IR or have had one because instructing really wasn't there first choice after getting a license. But as nobody will let them fly a shiny jet they did that instead.

[Privatecaptain]

Nice aerial picture from the crash site (taken april 2012)
http://www.maasvlakte2.com/cache/434...f51ba807e.jpeg

So as you can see, it is really difficult to find something high to hit....

[achimha]

Not in the UK.

And you don't need an IR to file an IFR flight plan.

You are talking about the UK IMC I suppose?

You can be quite legal flying in and out of cloud not speaking to anyone. In fact nobody would know you were even in cloud.

Yeah, I imagine a great summer day with one nice cumulus cloud next to the airfield and several CFIs deciding to practice. Around here, there would also be the zillion of gliders jumping at that cumulus cloud and those guys are even allowed to fly inside the cloud. The "not speaking to anyone" part makes it even more interesting.

[peterh337]

Germans in particular find the UK IFR Class G rules particularly hard to accept

IFR in Class G is illegal there.

The reality is that the UK, with its GA community approximately same size as Germany and bigger than France and bigger than perhaps the rest of Europe put together, and with a long established culture of flying IMC non-radio, has had zero mid-airs in IMC since WW2. 1-2 a year in VMC, usually near airfields or with people doing silly low level stuff.

Emotionally this concept is hard to accept, of course. But safety regulation should be based on data, not emotion.

[Privatecaptain]

Agree! However, it's illegal. In order to penetrate the clouds, you have file an IFR flight plan. In order to do that your instructor needs to be an IR instructor and you have to be registered as an instrument student.

You are right that you need an IR instructor and need to fly under an IFR plan, but i am not sure about your last remark

[B2N2]

If this was a case of disorientation in seafog I am curious as to why the pilot did not climb prior to entering it or flew inland for that matter.
Anybody familiar with the airspace above that area?
Do we know anything about the experience level of the pilot? PPL? CPL?

[achimha]

Germans in particular find the UK IFR Class G rules particularly hard to accept

Hard to accept that it's not allowed over here. Common European rules should solve that once and for all (not being sarcastic).

In the UK, can you just take out your plane at your uncontrolled airfield and decide to go up penetrating clouds in airspace G? Without having filed an IFR flight plan and without the goal of flying IFR?

[BackPacker]

Anybody familiar with the airspace above that area?

Very. Right there it's class G to 1500' (which was roughly the top of the fog layer), then class E (Rotterdam TMA) to FL55, then class A. So right there there would not have been an airspace issue if they would have climbed.

However, just a few miles North (the direction they were heading) the Schiphol TMA (class A) starts at 1500', and the Hotel arrival into Rotterdam starts there, also at 1500', so it's uncommon to be much above 1500' over there, considering their direction of travel and destination.

I was aerobatting in the Rotterdam TMA, and heard Rotterdam approach trying to contact the PH-SKJ. However there was no indication whatsoever that there might've been something wrong. Just a routine 'are you on this frequency?' call.

[ppl_fresher]

In the UK, can you just take out your plane at your uncontrolled airfield and decide to go up penetrating clouds in airspace G? Without having filed an IFR flight plan and without the goal of flying IFR?

As long as you are rated to fly in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (ie you have a UK IMC or an IR): Yes.

Of course, you would be silly to do this without checking the freezing level and MSA, and most people would recommend that if there is any chance of encountering VFR traffic on the other side, you should be in receipt of a radar service (in practice a traffic or deconfliction service - another UK oddity). Finally, if you're cruising above 3000ft you need to be flying a quadrantal level (yep, another UK speciality).

[mad_jock]

In the UK, can you just take out your plane at your uncontrolled airfield and decide to go up penetrating clouds in airspace G? Without having filed an IFR flight plan and without the goal of flying IFR?

Yep and if you don't speak to anyone nobody will know you have done it.

You can also do the yo-yo between IFR and VFR if you like as well.

Or pitch up out side CAS and request a IFR arrival if you so wish. Be you VFR or IFR without a plan up until that point.

The only time you need a flightplan in the UK is if you want to use the airways system or cross an international FIR or you are over 5700kg.

The ATS in class G though is very strange as well. I wonder if that !!!!e will be put to bed as well with EASA?

[DX Wombat]

You are right that you need an IR instructor and need to fly under an IFR plan,

Not in the UK. You can fly using IFR in VFR conditions without either an IMC or an IR.

[riverrock83]

As has been dicussed previously, according to the EASA Aircrew Regulation (Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011) JAR-FCL licences became Part-FCL licences on 8 April 2012, and in accordance with Part-FCL the holder of such a licence requires an Instrument Rating (IR) to act as pilot in command on an IFR flight.

So you can't fly under IFR without an IR unless perhaps if you have an old UK PPL or you have some sort of instrument rating (IMC / IR).

[mad_jock]

Its been pushed back.

[DX Wombat]

You can, but you can't fly IFR in IMC.

[mad_jock]

DX err its the only thing you can be in IMC