Cessna 172 missing over North Sea

[stickandrudderman]

You can, but you can't fly IFR in IMC.

DX err its the only thing you can be in IMC

I think he means you can't fly IFR in IMC without an IR or an IMCR but you can fly IFR in VMC whether you've got those qualifications or not.

[Zulu Alpha]

In the UK, can you just take out your plane at your uncontrolled airfield and decide to go up penetrating clouds in airspace G? Without having filed an IFR flight plan and without the goal of flying IFR?

Yeah, I imagine a great summer day with one nice cumulus cloud next to the airfield and several CFIs deciding to practice. Around here, there would also be the zillion of gliders jumping at that cumulus cloud and those guys are even allowed to fly inside the cloud. The "not speaking to anyone" part makes it even more interesting.

The reality is that the UK, with its GA community approximately same size as Germany and bigger than France and bigger than perhaps the rest of Europe put together, and with a long established culture of flying IMC non-radio, has had zero mid-airs in IMC since WW2. 1-2 a year in VMC, usually near airfields or with people doing silly low level stuff.

Emotionally this concept is hard to accept, of course. But safety regulation should be based on data, not emotion.

Achima, perhaps you see why we believe we have a safer system with a simple to obtain IMC rating. Once you base your analysis on facts rather than emotion then surely you would come to the right answer to:

Common European rules should solve that once and for all

and adopt the safer british system rather than the stupid "enroute" instrument rating that EASA are proposing.

This is taken from something written by someone who flies at my airfield:

Salutary lesson. They say it takes two minutes to lose control in IMC if you aren't trained. I think it is more like fifteen seconds. Crossing Northumberland on my way back from Dundee to East Anglia a couple of weeks ago, I was dumped on by a snow shower that was not in the forecast. I didn't fly into it - it landed on me like a net being dropped from above. Complete whiteout with no warning. For a few seconds I peered into the whiteness, hoping my X-Ray vision would cut in and when it didn't I looked down. The roll angle was over thirty degrees to the right, the pitch was ten degrees down and the speed was marching through the yellow sector en route to the red. And the altimeter was unwinding like a spring. But my balance organs were telling me I was still straight and level. Thanks to Ricky and his IMC drills, I knew what to do. But crikey! Two minutes would have been fatal.

Now tell me that he shouldn't be allowed to have an IMC rating!

[DX Wombat]

Stick - thank you, that's exactly what I meant. I thought people would understand that as it followed on from Riverrocks assertion a post or two previous to mine.

[NutLoose]

More here

Vliegtuigje met 4 personen neergestort - Flashphoto.nl

Not much really. Just some details on the passengers, two boys aged 10 and 17, a male pilot aged 50 and a male passenger aged 59. All are from Rotterdam. They have all been taken to the hospital. One by helicopter, the rest by ambulance.

At the time of the accident there was a dense sea mist which might have contributed to the accident.

There are some wreckage pictures at the Telegraaf, Volkskrant and no doubt countless other news sites.

C172 down in sea off Holland - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

[riverrock83]

Its been pushed back.

The CAA has pushed back issuing new EASA Part FCL licences. It didn't push back the conversion, so all JAR licences in the UK are now considered Part FCL licences.

Originally Posted by DX Wombat

Stick - thank you, that's exactly what I meant. I thought people would understand that as it followed on from Riverrocks assertion a post or two previous to mine.

I shall quote the European regs:

FCL.600 IR — General
Operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.

It doesn't matter whether you are in VMC or IMC - to be operating under IFR you must have an IR / IMC (or a pre-JAR licence...).

Of course - the CAA may have issued a derogation which I've missed.

[UV]

Yeah, I imagine a great summer day with one nice cumulus cloud next to the airfield and several CFIs deciding to practice. Around here, there would also be the zillion of gliders jumping at that cumulus cloud and those guys are even allowed to fly inside the cloud

Achimah...
Since when has cloud flying in gliders been allowed in Germany?
It was banned in the 1930's following about 4 midair collisions in one cloud at the Gliding Olympics.
Forgive me of they have recently changed the rules.

[achimha]

Since when has cloud flying in gliders been allowed in Germany?

For a long time, don't know the exact year. There's even a paragraph in the law. Basically you need a special cloud gliding rating and permission from ATC. From what I understand, with today's advanced gliders they rarely go inside clouds.

[waveskimmer]

BACKPACKER
severe CAVOK conditions, doing aerobatics up to FL50, is that an ESA thing?

[BackPacker]

CAVOK means no cloud below 5000, visibility 10km or more.

Severe CAVOK means not a cloud in the sky anywhere and visibility 30km or more.

Doesn't everybody know that?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Of course we all know! Thank you, though, for the reminder. There's such an awful lot of obviousness to remember.

[peterh337]

CAVOK means no cloud below 5000ft, or the MSA if higher

[Katamarino]

Sadly the pilot, a fellw club member of ours, recently succumbed to his injuries. The three passengers are still in a bad way.

[Ultra long hauler]

Originally Posted by Katamarino

Sadly the pilot, a fellw club member of ours, recently succumbed to his injuries. The three passengers are still in a bad way.

I am sorry to hear that Kata.
Fingers crossed for the unfortunate pax.

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[NorthSouth]

The official accident report is now published here (in Dutch) and an English summary here. I don't read Dutch but the summary says the aircraft simply descended in encountering fog, and hit the ground.
NS

[MartinCh]

... and FAA CFIs have an IR. Not so common over here.

14 CFR 61.183 does not mandate IR for rotorcraft (helicopter and/or gyro) instructors in the USA. Yes, basic reference to instruments is part of VFR training, but small pistons are illegal to fly in clouds anyway. Just BTW. I know the context implies aeroplane/fixed wing.

[172driver]

Reading the English summary it's actually quite scary how a highly organized country like Holland can get SAR so horribly wrong. Sad.

[maxred]

Reading the English summary it's actually quite scary how a highly organized country like Holland can get SAR so horribly wrong. Sad.

Totally and utterly incompetent, you mean. These poor guys lay for almost 5 hours, whilst, it would appear, this lot, namely the Coastguard, sat around drinking coffee.

Astonishing. What gets me is the amount of public money, i.e. public taxes, that prop up outfits like this, and when push comes to shove, no real accountability. I assume the head of the NL coastguard is still in his well paid job?

I also like the attempt to soften the blow by stating the weather conditions were, very severe. Is that not what they are trained for? Do they not sit around all year, in between training, waiting for incidents such as these, then spring into action. Not this time it would appear......

[Katamarino]

5 hours to find a crashed aircraft on the Maasvlakte...absolutely horrifying. Nowhere in Holland is in any way remote, and even the new areas of the Maasvlakte 2 are close to road and busy port areas.