Scottish Info Coverage
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From: Niort
Scottish Info Coverage
Split off from the microlight crash. I've started this if only because of FBW comments;
So I'm saying that if you want to talk to Scottish from east to west be at 5000. FBW says its pretty good at 3000 in most places.
My personal experience is that I can hear the aircraft talking to Scottish as I cross the Cairngorm massive and the higher ground to the south (like Ben More) if at 5000. At 4000 most of the time. At less than that it is pretty spotty. When you are around the Glencoe area it is reasonably good
Now I would refute that this is very negative and false - because it is my experience so is there some information which you can give us FBW? As I posted on that thread I think that Scottish actually make a Basic service useful at least in terms of SAR. So where is the coverage 'pretty good' and where is is not?
GASAX
Quote:
I don't know what the plan was that these guys had. But there is no way they could raise Scottish unless they were at at least 5000ft in that area. Anything less and it is pretty spotty. And that is the case all the way until you get pretty near the coast on the other side. There are areas where it works at something around the height of the tops plus 1000 and there are areas it doesn't.
GASAX....You often make some very negative and false claims on this forum about Scottish Info....having been doing the job for the past 16 years I know every place that I will expect to lose contact with aircraft I am talking to....coverage is pretty good above 3000ft in most place's but bear in mind VHF is indeed line of sight so yes we can not expect total coverage from my 3 aerial site's that I am able to use.
Quote:
I don't know what the plan was that these guys had. But there is no way they could raise Scottish unless they were at at least 5000ft in that area. Anything less and it is pretty spotty. And that is the case all the way until you get pretty near the coast on the other side. There are areas where it works at something around the height of the tops plus 1000 and there are areas it doesn't.
GASAX....You often make some very negative and false claims on this forum about Scottish Info....having been doing the job for the past 16 years I know every place that I will expect to lose contact with aircraft I am talking to....coverage is pretty good above 3000ft in most place's but bear in mind VHF is indeed line of sight so yes we can not expect total coverage from my 3 aerial site's that I am able to use.
My personal experience is that I can hear the aircraft talking to Scottish as I cross the Cairngorm massive and the higher ground to the south (like Ben More) if at 5000. At 4000 most of the time. At less than that it is pretty spotty. When you are around the Glencoe area it is reasonably good
Now I would refute that this is very negative and false - because it is my experience so is there some information which you can give us FBW? As I posted on that thread I think that Scottish actually make a Basic service useful at least in terms of SAR. So where is the coverage 'pretty good' and where is is not?
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Slightly aggressive mate, no need. FBW is a good bloke who puts in alot of his own personal unpaid time to promote flight safety in Scotland.
In fact there are more than a few scottish controller who are very active GA pilots and Scottish have been extremely forward with designing things to make the intergration of CAT and GA, gliding etc as sensible as possible. I can't think of any where else that has gliding transite corridors through airways and airways not being class A just so VFR traffic can get through.
In fact there are more than a few scottish controller who are very active GA pilots and Scottish have been extremely forward with designing things to make the intergration of CAT and GA, gliding etc as sensible as possible. I can't think of any where else that has gliding transite corridors through airways and airways not being class A just so VFR traffic can get through.
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
GASAX....anything over the Cairngorm is never a problem as We have a TX/RX site on the East end of the Moray coast. If you follow the A9 below the tops I will lose you northbound past Blair Atholl as I lose you on my TX/RX site that is just north of Dundee on high ground till you are in view of the Moray Coast TX approaching Newtonmore.
The Great Glen is hopeless below 4000ft.
Between Oban and Lock Fyne below 2500ft not good and around Ranok below 3500 ft not brill.
As you are aware VHF is line of site so if below the hill tops yes R/T could be poor........as I said in my earlier posts we really do understand the areas that we can expect to lose contact....its the only sector I do and having done it for the past 16 years I have a reasonable understanding as to what I am talking about.
As Mad Jock says I put a fair ammount of my own spare time and effort visiting Scottish clubs and inviting them through to our facility at Prestwick in an effort to promote flight safety.....may be one day you would like to join me for the day and see if you really think I know what I am talking about.
In the mean time safe flying.
The Great Glen is hopeless below 4000ft.
Between Oban and Lock Fyne below 2500ft not good and around Ranok below 3500 ft not brill.
As you are aware VHF is line of site so if below the hill tops yes R/T could be poor........as I said in my earlier posts we really do understand the areas that we can expect to lose contact....its the only sector I do and having done it for the past 16 years I have a reasonable understanding as to what I am talking about.
As Mad Jock says I put a fair ammount of my own spare time and effort visiting Scottish clubs and inviting them through to our facility at Prestwick in an effort to promote flight safety.....may be one day you would like to join me for the day and see if you really think I know what I am talking about.
In the mean time safe flying.
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From: Down south
Interesting thread!
A suggestion would be to publish a coverage chart based on FBW's knowledge so that plots could, if they wished, plan their flights to remain in areas, or at altitudes, of known coverage. Of course some jobsworth would moan and claim they could not contact Scottish at 2501 ft in an area promolgated as good above 2500.
Some pilots won' t use radios, at present that is their choice, but even if coverage is poor in an emergency, 'someone' on the frequency might hear enough to get the SAR ball rolling.
Keep up the good work FBW
A suggestion would be to publish a coverage chart based on FBW's knowledge so that plots could, if they wished, plan their flights to remain in areas, or at altitudes, of known coverage. Of course some jobsworth would moan and claim they could not contact Scottish at 2501 ft in an area promolgated as good above 2500.
Some pilots won' t use radios, at present that is their choice, but even if coverage is poor in an emergency, 'someone' on the frequency might hear enough to get the SAR ball rolling.
Keep up the good work FBW
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From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
if they wished, plan their flights to remain in areas, or at altitudes, of known coverage.
Scottish Information are good - but only if they can be contacted. I find it difficult to predict where this will be, N of the Great Glen, through until the west coast. I often sign off to a listening watch with 127.275 as I leave the weat coast, but can hear Scottish in surprising places and altitudes before I call Inverness. Nobody is interrogating the transponder over much of the area, and our ELT got stolen from a vehicle.
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From: Glasgow
My instructors actively encourage me to always be talking to someone on the radio, be that Glasgow Approach when East of Glasgow, Prestwick if staying local or Scottish Info if doing a Navex towards Dunfries. If I'm not talking to someone then I think something is wrong!
From my (very) limited experience I've struggled to contact Scottish below about 2500 feet when South of Prestwick. When I have been able to talk they've been great.
From my (very) limited experience I've struggled to contact Scottish below about 2500 feet when South of Prestwick. When I have been able to talk they've been great.
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From: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
For what it’s worth !
Some thoughts I have regarding Scottish Information (SI) that tie into an earlier thread I started called "LOOKING FOR POINTERS/ADVICE/IDEAS and after reading some replies on the Ben More tragedy thread regarding the usefulness /utility of SI to pilots in difficulties.
Basically, my previous thread was about a rather unpleasant encounter with downdrafts and turbulence; however what was also unusual about this flight that I did not mention in the thread was that it was the first time I had EVER used SI. The reasons for this were most of my flying until this year was done overseas and I was not really sure who I should be talking too i.e. Leuchars, SI etc. and a little apprehension about not knowing the ropes. This was laziness on my behalf which prompted me before the flight in question to sit down and read up on UK control services /functions/coverage.
As I set off on the flight from Forfar to Oban I made my very first contact with SI which went well and gained a certain level of comfort knowing I had, to a degree, what I knew as “flight following”. I must admit that I stated in my previously mentioned thread that the encounter with the downdrafts/turbulence was not overly concerning, the truth is I was absolutely !!!!!ting myself. Right after I turned away from the ridge and while still getting seriously buffeted about I thought I had missed a call from SI so I initiated contact. For whatever reason, perhaps the controller detected anxiety in my voice, he very calmly asked if “everything was alright” to which I replied yes . The communication seemed to calm me somewhat and tone down my fear by a few notches perhaps because I thought subconsciously that if I am communicating, the aviation part of the equation can’t be that dire. I note that some replies in the Ben More tragedy alluded to the point that SI will not prevent an accident, which may be true. However, I believe that if a pilot in difficulties knows they are not alone that in itself can expedite his mental state returning from panicked to logical and maybe just perhaps avoid the problem escalating. Bottom line when in a difficult situation I will take all and any help I can get regardless of the type, even if it is just encouragement that aids my return to calmness which in turn will improve my skills as an aviator and rational decision making when addressing difficulties.
So well done SI, I will be using you again you can count on that !
Some thoughts I have regarding Scottish Information (SI) that tie into an earlier thread I started called "LOOKING FOR POINTERS/ADVICE/IDEAS and after reading some replies on the Ben More tragedy thread regarding the usefulness /utility of SI to pilots in difficulties.
Basically, my previous thread was about a rather unpleasant encounter with downdrafts and turbulence; however what was also unusual about this flight that I did not mention in the thread was that it was the first time I had EVER used SI. The reasons for this were most of my flying until this year was done overseas and I was not really sure who I should be talking too i.e. Leuchars, SI etc. and a little apprehension about not knowing the ropes. This was laziness on my behalf which prompted me before the flight in question to sit down and read up on UK control services /functions/coverage.
As I set off on the flight from Forfar to Oban I made my very first contact with SI which went well and gained a certain level of comfort knowing I had, to a degree, what I knew as “flight following”. I must admit that I stated in my previously mentioned thread that the encounter with the downdrafts/turbulence was not overly concerning, the truth is I was absolutely !!!!!ting myself. Right after I turned away from the ridge and while still getting seriously buffeted about I thought I had missed a call from SI so I initiated contact. For whatever reason, perhaps the controller detected anxiety in my voice, he very calmly asked if “everything was alright” to which I replied yes . The communication seemed to calm me somewhat and tone down my fear by a few notches perhaps because I thought subconsciously that if I am communicating, the aviation part of the equation can’t be that dire. I note that some replies in the Ben More tragedy alluded to the point that SI will not prevent an accident, which may be true. However, I believe that if a pilot in difficulties knows they are not alone that in itself can expedite his mental state returning from panicked to logical and maybe just perhaps avoid the problem escalating. Bottom line when in a difficult situation I will take all and any help I can get regardless of the type, even if it is just encouragement that aids my return to calmness which in turn will improve my skills as an aviator and rational decision making when addressing difficulties.
So well done SI, I will be using you again you can count on that !
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Piperboy.....interesting and thanks.......only last year I was talking to a 3 axis micro C42/Jabiru??? As he was following the North Solway coast towards Northern Ireland....as dusk was approaching and he neared the coast just about to cross the North Channel he indicated to me that his fuel guage showed empty!!!...........I asked him if he wished to declare an emergancy?.....no was the reply as the aircraft was just out of overhaul and he believed the guage was faulty.........I suggested that as night was nearly upon us and a water crossing was about to be commenced would it not be prudent to land At Castle Kennedy only 5 miles away to actually check fuel remaining in the tank?.........no said he I am convinced its the guage!........OK then I say if you dont think its an issue why did you tell me.........his answer "Well you know what they say a problem shared is a problem halfed!!!"
So yes please pop on the frequency any time you please in an attempt to half your problems...
So yes please pop on the frequency any time you please in an attempt to half your problems...
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From: Sometimes north, sometimes south
fbw: doesn't your hair-raising story just illustrate perfectly the main problem with this debate?
Let me stress I am in no way seeking to denigrate the fantastic FREE service you provide - we are extremely lucky in Scotland. But in your "problem shared" scenario, if your cheeky chappy had continued across the North Channel on the last vestiges of vapour, run out halfway across and not got his mayday call out until he was below your cover so you were none the wiser, would you have concluded anything from not hearing from him again? If you were ultra-conscientious and started phoning round Newtownards etc to find out if he'd got there, and he hadn't, would you then have kicked off a full search?
Your 'fly on empty' pilot is in effect placing the burden on you for his safety, when you have very little capacity to help him (especially if he says no!) and he has deliberately put himself in a highly risky situation. It seems to me the difficulty is getting pilots like these to understand that they remain fully and solely responsible for their own safety, whether it's weather, terrain, fuel or whatever, and that just because they're talking to Scottish Info doesn't mean someone else is somehow guaranteeing their safety - or, worse still, somehow partially to blame if they go down.
NS
Let me stress I am in no way seeking to denigrate the fantastic FREE service you provide - we are extremely lucky in Scotland. But in your "problem shared" scenario, if your cheeky chappy had continued across the North Channel on the last vestiges of vapour, run out halfway across and not got his mayday call out until he was below your cover so you were none the wiser, would you have concluded anything from not hearing from him again? If you were ultra-conscientious and started phoning round Newtownards etc to find out if he'd got there, and he hadn't, would you then have kicked off a full search?
Your 'fly on empty' pilot is in effect placing the burden on you for his safety, when you have very little capacity to help him (especially if he says no!) and he has deliberately put himself in a highly risky situation. It seems to me the difficulty is getting pilots like these to understand that they remain fully and solely responsible for their own safety, whether it's weather, terrain, fuel or whatever, and that just because they're talking to Scottish Info doesn't mean someone else is somehow guaranteeing their safety - or, worse still, somehow partially to blame if they go down.
NS
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You wern't very sympathetic when I told you that I was freezing my nads off in a piper cub in Jan going up Glen Shee heading towards the Ghru. It certainly wasn't a problem shared. In fact I think it cheered your day up.
Although having a numb arse and testicals that resemble half a walnut can't really be classed as an emergency.
And to be fair N/S the info boys do actually check up on you if they have lost contact with you. As said they are proberly better at working out estimates than most pilots. Which is another reason why I suspect they want a pic and data in G-INFO because they certainly do give that number a phone to make sure you have arrived or phone the twr at your declared destination. I know that when I forget to ask the tower to let them know on the way in by the time I have shut down and got to a phone they have already phoned up and checked we are home.
And although FBW is seen on here as the face of Scottish INfo the rest of them are very similar in thier service and shall we say application of common sense.
Although having a numb arse and testicals that resemble half a walnut can't really be classed as an emergency.
And to be fair N/S the info boys do actually check up on you if they have lost contact with you. As said they are proberly better at working out estimates than most pilots. Which is another reason why I suspect they want a pic and data in G-INFO because they certainly do give that number a phone to make sure you have arrived or phone the twr at your declared destination. I know that when I forget to ask the tower to let them know on the way in by the time I have shut down and got to a phone they have already phoned up and checked we are home.
And although FBW is seen on here as the face of Scottish INfo the rest of them are very similar in thier service and shall we say application of common sense.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th May 2012 at 09:04.
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FBW and his colleagues do all they can to help GA fliers in their neck of the woods and I'd urge folk to take him up on his numerous offers to give people an insight into the work they do. I visited the unit a few years ago and it was a real eye opener.
Keep up the good work
PS....MJ, that journey could freeze your nads off in a car in January let alone a Cub. I lived in the Highlands in the mid 80's and I've never known cold like it. Happy days
Keep up the good work
PS....MJ, that journey could freeze your nads off in a car in January let alone a Cub. I lived in the Highlands in the mid 80's and I've never known cold like it. Happy days
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
NorthSouth.....
As a rule for traffic crossing the North Channel we would transfer the details to Belfast City ATC and ask the aircraft to call them as they coast out at Portpatrick.......in this instance not only that but did indeed advise Belfast of the situation.........as for losing contact with aircraft, well as I have said before,we tend to know where we will lose contactvwith you and if we do we try to make every endevour to make sure you arrive at your destination safe and well without calling out the cavalry...
fbw: doesn't your hair-raising story just illustrate perfectly the main problem with this debate?
Let me stress I am in no way seeking to denigrate the fantastic FREE service you provide - we are extremely lucky in Scotland. But in your "problem shared" scenario, if your cheeky chappy had continued across the North Channel on the last vestiges of vapour, run out halfway across and not got his mayday call out until he was below your cover so you were none the wiser, would you have concluded anything from not hearing from him again? If you were ultra-conscientious and started phoning round Newtownards etc to find out if he'd got there, and he hadn't, would you then have kicked off a full search?
NS
Let me stress I am in no way seeking to denigrate the fantastic FREE service you provide - we are extremely lucky in Scotland. But in your "problem shared" scenario, if your cheeky chappy had continued across the North Channel on the last vestiges of vapour, run out halfway across and not got his mayday call out until he was below your cover so you were none the wiser, would you have concluded anything from not hearing from him again? If you were ultra-conscientious and started phoning round Newtownards etc to find out if he'd got there, and he hadn't, would you then have kicked off a full search?
NS
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From: England & Scotland
My first trip up to the Western Highlands and routing from Cumbernauld direct to Invergarry I was suprised to hear from FBW when I signed on and gave my route that he expected to lose contact with me just after Fort William. However, with that warning I did check in with him just before and then sign-off. No suprises - I do like that in a flight!
Up until that point, good reception even though I was never more than 1,000 ft above the tops on route, and never above 4,000. (Helicopters - or this pilot - seem to be alergic to being too high. It must be the vast amount of time we spend down in the weeds - I am vey comfortable at 500 ft AGL!).
Professional, helpful, worth every penny. Thank you for the service, and for the help.
Up until that point, good reception even though I was never more than 1,000 ft above the tops on route, and never above 4,000. (Helicopters - or this pilot - seem to be alergic to being too high. It must be the vast amount of time we spend down in the weeds - I am vey comfortable at 500 ft AGL!).
Professional, helpful, worth every penny. Thank you for the service, and for the help.
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From: Somewhere in Southern England
As a Scot who lives well south of Hadrians Wall it strikes me that Scottish Info does a good job in a challenging terrain. Would it be sensible to publish (in the UK-AIP) a coverage map for Scottish Info at 2,000ft, 3,000 ft, 4,000ft anfd 5,000ft AMSL?
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From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Today I called 127.275 from near the top of Ben Nevis, with my details, saying I would lose them on descent. As I passed 3200', I was given 119.875. I got no reply, and for some time heard only one other aircraft. Crossing from Loch Etive to Loch Awe, I heard them clearly, and passed my details. I thought they were acknowledged. There then followed a long process, being relayed by an unfortunate helpful pilot, of confirming my intentions. At 12.59Z I was over Loch Awe, routing towards Jura, estimating Oban at 14.00Z, having departed Inverness. I feel I caused a lot of bother, and would have been better, in that area, leaving the radio until approaching Oban. Brakes on time was 14.03Z, so my estimate was reasonably accurate.
I later worked 127.275 from Glenforsa to Lochinver, before returning to Inverness.
I later worked 127.275 from Glenforsa to Lochinver, before returning to Inverness.
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Maoraigh....We heard your initially call on 119.875 loud and clear as you reported over Loch Awe, after that we seemed to lose contact and you could not hear us....I asked GTYNE to relay and he told me later over the phone that even he who was 4000ft and in your position could hardly make you out.....as I have said in earlier posts below 3000ft to the south of Oban coverage on 119.875 can be poor, that said the fact an aircraft 2000ft above you and only a few miles away could hardly read your transmisions leads me to think your radio/ aerial set up may not be working too well?......that said we did ring Oban and tell them that you would be landing at 1400 after your flight towards Jura......Hope this explanation helps?
Last edited by fisbangwollop; 20th May 2012 at 21:49.
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From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Thanks. No problem with Oban 118.05 from S of Kerrera. No problem on 127.275 from off Tobermory to E of Lochinver. If my radio was the problem, it was on just one frequency. As I said, I'll revert to talking to Scottish once I'm clear of the hills. (Unless I'm staying high) The accident thread comments which sparked this thread got me to try to contact earlier.
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From: USA
As said above, some kind of estimated coverage map, official or unoffical would be useful as a guide
FIS will always just be that.
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From: Niort
I refer to my former statments - if you want to talk to Scottish over the high ground, get to 5000ft and there should be few problems.
Lower than that it gets spotty.
Perhaps if FBW could give us the location of the repeater stations we could all make educated guesses about likely coverage?
Lower than that it gets spotty.
Perhaps if FBW could give us the location of the repeater stations we could all make educated guesses about likely coverage?