Attitude = speed control/power = pitch

[goldeneaglepilot]

EKGB - a couple of simple question's, How many hours have you got in your log book and what lesson numbers have you covered?

Do you have any other experience of flight? For example radio controlled model aircraft or flight simulators?

[EGKB]

- 6 hours logged

I have great flight sim experience, I was flying on VATSIM online with a microphone when I was 11, using SIDS/STARS and chart reading and cold starts in PMDG 747 and so on....

It's kind of a hinderence to the beginning of my learning because he was going through all flight controls, and wouldn't listen to me when I told him I knew what the rudder/ailerons where..

however what I've realised is that it's not a rush, and either way I'm going to need 45 hours minimum regardless of how fast I learn things.

Going flying this saturday, and then on the 20th

[Genghis the Engineer]

If don't use the technique you'll crash and die

I have one AAIB report to my name, because of a combination of poor airmanship (mine, not anybody else's), contributed to by not being trained to fly the aeroplane properly - rather some club pilot's incorrect beliefs of how to do it when they checked me out on a new type, not helped by my relative inexperience at the time stopping me forcing the issue and making damned sure I was flying it as it should have been.

I am very keen to keep that score fixed, but have also spent considerable time over my 23 years in aviation trying to help other people to score lower than me.

Feel free to get judgmental about that.

G

[goldeneaglepilot]

- 6 hours logged

I have great flight sim experience, I was flying on VATSIM online with a microphone when I was 11, using SIDS/STARS and chart reading and cold starts in PMDG 747 and so on....

It's kind of a hinderence to the beginning of my learning because he was going through all flight controls, and wouldn't listen to me when I told him I knew what the rudder/ailerons where..

however what I've realised is that it's not a rush, and either way I'm going to need 45 hours minimum regardless of how fast I learn things.

Going flying this saturday, and then on the 20th

Thanks for that, now I understand where your obvious superior experience and knowledge comes from. Perhaps it should be a mandatory requirement for the future, that all students should be able to fly STARS/SIDS and cold start a 747 on a flight sim before starting their PPL training.

How to connect to VATSIM - YouTube

Perhaps if you had played an online game as a soldier you would have had a great future in the army - knowing all the "tricks" to keep you alive. I trust you also tried cybersex and that has made you fantastic with girls!!!

[Pilot DAR]

Family visit? Or you were flying across?

I'm working for a German client on their turbine DC-3 for a few days.

I still think you guys are a bit too "black and white" if you will. If don't use the technique you'll crash and die

It's true, nearly always, you can "get away" with mistakes while piloting. Occasionally, it takes every bit of skill you have. It's those times you have to have the insticnt right as a foundation of your skill. When something goes wrong, something else is right behind it, and you will be overwhelmed. that is the worst time to be trying to recall the unpractised "right way" of doing things.

Why are new soldiers made to march around the parade grounds for hours? Stiff body marching is really not an element of warfare - but following instruction is!

My observation is that you present a bit too much rebellion for my comfort. Now, I don't have to fly with you.... But, I still care. Every oppportunity I have to make our industry more safe, by "redirecting" a pilot to the better way, I will, 'cause it benefits all of us. I don't know who you are, but if you make a smoking hole somewhere, and I could have had a small part in influencing better skills and attitute for you, and preventing it and did not, I let you, and our whole industry down.

Readers here get an awesome amout of free wisdom here. Why are the experienced pilots spending so much time providing it - 'cause we like to type? Old pilots don't like to type! But we do feel a responsibility to grow and mentor a safe industry, and prevent careless or REBELLIOUS behaviour when we think we see it. If I heard you say what I have seen you write, would I rent you my plane? Not a hope! There is a world full of "keener" new pilots who seek nothing other than an opportunity, and they'll be very co-operative to get it - I was one. They sure are not going to rebel. So why would the provider of airplanes and flying want to endure a rebel?

When I fly with new pilots aboard, I pay particular attention to not fall into my casual flying habits, and demonstrate poor airmanship (which I should not be doing anyway, of course - but did I say I was perfect here?). Thus I will write here - the right way, which are your stage of flying, is the way you are taught. Maybe I agree with it, maybe not so much, but I'm not going to give you standing to "buck the system" at this young age - no one let me, when I was flying at 15! You have to march the drill first for a while!

But, after all of that, I'm not distracted - I have not forgotten that I challenged you... Are you up for it!

[Heston]

6 hours logged

I have great flight sim experience, I was flying on VATSIM
online with a microphone when I was 11, using SIDS/STARS and chart reading and
cold starts in PMDG 747 and so on....

And there, my friend, is your problem. End of story. (GEP - irony is going to be lost on this guy)

H

[Big Pistons Forever]

The most important practical concept when teaching the early ab initio students is to make sure they can recognize by looking at the natural horizon through the windshield what the pitch attitude of the aircraft should be to fly level for that airspeed. The ability to go directly to the correct attitude is the corner stone of the ability to fly accurately. Sadly many licensed pilots can't do this and compensate by chasing the instruments.

What does this have to do with the thread topic ? Well IMO, everything. The pitch for airspeed power for rate of descent or point and power styles share one defining nexus. The ability to set and hold a desired pitch attitude.

Personally I teach a blended method. I start with a pure pitch for airspeed and power to control the flight path because it is consistent with what is taught in the early climb/descent lessons and because it builds a life saving reflex, lowering the nose when the airspeed is too low. As student skills develop I find the students naturally gravitate to a point and power technique because it is provides a smoother final approach. But by this time they fully understand the interrelationship between changes in power and changes in attitude and can fly accurate airspeeds at different power settings.

Finally there has been much discussion about the back side of power curve. The point of the slow flight exercise should not be to fly in the slow flight regime because unless you are into serious STOL work there is no reason to be there unless you are in the landing flare, but rather to teach early recognition of the fact that the aircraft is entering the slow flight regime and effective recovery into normal flight without a loss of altitude.

[EGKB]

I'm not saying my experience is superior.

But CLEARLY having prior knowledge of flight is beneficial, no?

[EGKB]

I knew exactly what you guys would say when I had prior sim experience, so no irony there. At least I can admit it's a hinderence to the early stages of my progression, but so far I've done everything perfectly, but more importantly I love flying and that's all that matters!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by EGKB

- 6 hours logged

I have great flight sim experience, I was flying on VATSIM online with a microphone when I was 11, using SIDS/STARS and chart reading and cold starts in PMDG 747 and so on....

It's kind of a hinderence to the beginning of my learning because he was going through all flight controls, and wouldn't listen to me when I told him I knew what the rudder/ailerons where..

A word to the wise on the subject of teaching and learning. I have learned and taught three main subjects in my life. Flying, aeronautical engineering, and Jiu Jitsu. I have high level qualifications in each, and am qualified to teach each.

I've learned with all of these that there's not necessarily a single right or wrong, and that some adaptation is needed. But, any expert practitioner has a complete set of practice and understanding that work really well together.

So if I go and spend time with another martial artist, or pilot, or engineer, I take time to take and use their understanding of the core subjects. Some compartmentalisation is very necessary - so I do not talk about stability when I have my pilot hat on in the same way as I do with my engineer hat on. Equally I practice Aiki Kempo Jiu Jitsu, but if I'm away from home and say go and play with the local Shorinji Khan Jujitsu club, I'll put a white belt on, listen hard to their instructor's view on how to throw, punch, breakfall, etc - and I get far more from it if I take their entire package of knowledge as a whole, and not go in saying that I understand lots of it already. Because I don't, not within their frame of reference.

Plus, even if I do have the same frame of reference for the beginners stuff, I don't necessarily know at what point our paradigms diverge, so I listen from the beginning.

This is across the board. There are engineers with a full frame of reference to their subject that I am better taking from the start, not from my personal starting point. And if I am learning a new flying skill - as I seem to most years - I listen to everything, and take the complete set.

It really really works better that way.

So, in your case, you are best in my opinion taking the full picture as understood and explained by your flying instructor - even back to something as basic as how the flaps and ailerons work, and use that as part of the lead in to the completely new knowledge that he'll reach soon enough.

however what I've realised is that it's not a rush, and either way I'm going to need 45 hours minimum regardless of how fast I learn things.

Going flying this saturday, and then on the 20th

If you can get the learning process right, which I suspect you do need to work on, you do have the advantage of youth. At 17 you should learn faster than most of us are capable of - and as such you are a lucky bastard. So if you do do really well, consider for example than you can do night, tailwheel, possibly some basic aerobatics, within those 45 hours. Don't bank on it, although if you are reasonably sharp, a night qualification at-least should be achievable within the 45.

Right now work on the learning process - which is very much about absorbing the complete paradigm being used by your instructor, rather than trying to cherry pick it material and paste that into your autodidactic past.

G

[EGKB]

G,

What part of training requires the most hours? For example circuits? I'm trying to deligently plan leave of work to make my flying lessons more effective at the most important stage..

For example take 3/4 days of work in a week and fly 5 hours in that week ~
What do you suggest?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by EGKB

G,

What part of training requires the most hours? For example circuits? I'm trying to deligently plan leave of work to make my flying lessons more effective at the most important stage..

For example take 3/4 days of work in a week and fly 5 hours in that week ~
What do you suggest?

That's a bit like "how long is a piece of string" to be honest.

Generally however there are things I can offer by way of suggestion:

- Turn up fresh and prepared for each lesson, ideally having read into it and mentally rehearsed, and you'll use a lot less hours on everything.

- If working and flying on the same day, always go flying first. It is much more productive to be thinking of flying at work, than thinking of work whilst flying.

- Don't skimp on basic principles and handling technique. Get all of that right, and the rest comes together very quickly and easily. Go too fast into the full exercises, and it may never really come together properly.

- But yes, keep current. Fly at-least once per week, ideally twice, if you want to progress fairly quickly. Twice per week is probably enough however.

G

[EGKB]

Thanks G,

Probably make a thread when I solo in 6 months

EDIT - 6 months, sorry I mean 2/3 so hopefully augustish

[goldeneaglepilot]

Genghis - well put.

My only concern is the wisdom of his thoughts (is it "perfect" to MS flight sim standards or to real world flying) I have yet to meet a student pilot who did everything "perfect"

but so far I've done everything perfectly

Youth might help, but in my opinion respect that others might have greater experience (gained from flying real aeroplanes in real weather) would help even more.

[EGKB]

Golden eagle..


I think perfect cannot be applied in either sim or real world. I just think safe operations of the occupants others and the aircraft are key. And that's what I've been doing so far. When I say perfect I'm generally refering to the fact that I don't need to be told how to trim, after being told once it's embedded in me.

EGKB

[mad_jock]

There isn't any 17 year old blokes who can go for a piss and do it perfectly never mind fly a plane.

Usually most don't even have a clue what they are doing wrong.

Complete oppersite to the women who are actually doing it correctly but think they are doing it wrong.

[Pace]

EGKB

There is nothing wrong in challenging concepts it is a way of questioning your own beliefs, listening to others and learning from each other.
There is one thing that worries me.
Most aircraft accidents occur because pilots do not fly within their own or the aircraft limits.
The secret of that is to know those limits.
A pilot who thinks he is better than he is suffers the danger of getting into a situation where one day he steps out of those limits, scares himself silly in which case he usually learns or worse crashes and kills himself.
I have now lost seven friends in aviation crashes. When such an event happens we as pilots like to think that the guy was an idiot in an aircraft which was a wreck.
We hate it if the pilots are good experienced guys because that makes us aware of our own vulnerability.
Sadly for me a majority were good experienced guys.
With your attitude at present I would hate you to be someone who may fly outside their own abilities because they know best.

Pace

[Dan the weegie]

Bit that takes the longest to get right?

Come on guys, that's easy

Straight and Level!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Complete oppersite to the women who are actually doing it correctly but think they are doing it wrong.

Yes.

Ignoring flying for the moment, as I have had a grand total of one woman student pilot, but in the dojo it's noticeable that men who can't crack a technique usually try to deal with it through speed and force (and a certain amount of overconfidence), whilst women who can't crack a technique usually try to deal with it by thinking really hard, but may sometimes give up because they just don't believe in themselves.

So long as I can maintain their self-confidence, women are almost always easier to teach martial arts to.

That seems to match your opinion of teaching flying.

G

[Cows getting bigger]

Bits that take the longest?

S&L TRIMMED
In balance at ALL stages of flight
Airmanship

Most people don't really start achieving the above until after they have their PPL.