Ferry flight or crate/ship? Rio de Janeiro to Panama City, Panama
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Ferry flight or crate/ship? Rio de Janeiro to Panama City, Panama
I'm in the process of buying a really nice used SeaMax M22 amphibious airplane from a private seller in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I've been down there, flown the plane and met with both the seller and the aircraft designer. We're finalizing payment details right now and I face a choice about how to get the aircraft back to Panama.
First option is to have the aircraft disassembled, crated and shipped to Panama. This is a fairly low effort option from my point of view but it is expensive. There is the labor to prepare the aircraft for shipment, the jigs to mount it in the container, a special Brazilian tax to move an airplane inside the country, the shipment cost and insurance for the whole thing. Plus the customs inspectors in Panama look very closely at things coming in containers so there are taxes and duties there. Delivery in Panama is then required and of course I need to fly someone in to assemble it. But, as I say earlier, very easy to do.
The other option is a lot more daunting but possibly quite exciting: a ferry flight. This is a VFR-only aircraft with a service ceiling of 12,000 feet. It has 25 gallons of fuel capacity with a Rotax 912ULS which burns about 5 gallons per hour, cursing at about 110 mph. It can use 100LL or ethanol-free auto gas but 100LL is more common at airfields in South America. With two pilots (I would be hiring a ferry pilot to fly with me) and light luggage, there isn't room for ferry fuel tanks as far as I can tell.
The problems lie in the routing. This isn't an easy - I've been playing with my Aera 500 to see if I can get a rough idea. Here are some of the issues I've encountered:
1. The Andes exceed the service ceiling quite considerably, so unless there are some well known passes through them between Bolivia and Peru, the route needs to stay to the east of them. I'm not particularly interested in having the same experience as a well-known football team either!
2. Airports of entry make things difficult. Crossing into Colombia is fairly easy at Leticia (SKLT) but then there isn't any fuel available in my range.
3. There is a long distance in Amazonas where there are no fuel stops, necessitating a big detour.
4. It is very hard to find charts. All I can find are ancient Operational Navigation Charts.
Here is the best route that I could come up with:
- Rio -> SBBT 373mi
- SBBT -> SWRT 487mi (might be a bit too far)
- SWRD -> SBVH 449mi
- SBVH -> SWRO 370mi
- SWRO -> SBRB 285mi
- SBRB -> SBCZ 368mi
- SBCZ -> SKLT 304mi (airport of entry into Colombia so I'm forced to enter here)
- SKLT -> SKUL 716mi (this is my big problem, I can't find fuel between these two points)
- SKUL -> MPMG 406mi (airport of entry into Panama)
Total: 3758 mi
Thoughts and advice on the relative merits of the two choices, route planning ideas, sources for charts and experiences of anyone who has done this would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Matt
First option is to have the aircraft disassembled, crated and shipped to Panama. This is a fairly low effort option from my point of view but it is expensive. There is the labor to prepare the aircraft for shipment, the jigs to mount it in the container, a special Brazilian tax to move an airplane inside the country, the shipment cost and insurance for the whole thing. Plus the customs inspectors in Panama look very closely at things coming in containers so there are taxes and duties there. Delivery in Panama is then required and of course I need to fly someone in to assemble it. But, as I say earlier, very easy to do.
The other option is a lot more daunting but possibly quite exciting: a ferry flight. This is a VFR-only aircraft with a service ceiling of 12,000 feet. It has 25 gallons of fuel capacity with a Rotax 912ULS which burns about 5 gallons per hour, cursing at about 110 mph. It can use 100LL or ethanol-free auto gas but 100LL is more common at airfields in South America. With two pilots (I would be hiring a ferry pilot to fly with me) and light luggage, there isn't room for ferry fuel tanks as far as I can tell.
The problems lie in the routing. This isn't an easy - I've been playing with my Aera 500 to see if I can get a rough idea. Here are some of the issues I've encountered:
1. The Andes exceed the service ceiling quite considerably, so unless there are some well known passes through them between Bolivia and Peru, the route needs to stay to the east of them. I'm not particularly interested in having the same experience as a well-known football team either!
2. Airports of entry make things difficult. Crossing into Colombia is fairly easy at Leticia (SKLT) but then there isn't any fuel available in my range.
3. There is a long distance in Amazonas where there are no fuel stops, necessitating a big detour.
4. It is very hard to find charts. All I can find are ancient Operational Navigation Charts.
Here is the best route that I could come up with:
- Rio -> SBBT 373mi
- SBBT -> SWRT 487mi (might be a bit too far)
- SWRD -> SBVH 449mi
- SBVH -> SWRO 370mi
- SWRO -> SBRB 285mi
- SBRB -> SBCZ 368mi
- SBCZ -> SKLT 304mi (airport of entry into Colombia so I'm forced to enter here)
- SKLT -> SKUL 716mi (this is my big problem, I can't find fuel between these two points)
- SKUL -> MPMG 406mi (airport of entry into Panama)
Total: 3758 mi
Thoughts and advice on the relative merits of the two choices, route planning ideas, sources for charts and experiences of anyone who has done this would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Matt
How about the `pretty route`; take -off,turn left,keep the green on left,blue on right....?
Put it in a box. This is just not enough airplane for the terrain on the route you are planning. There will be significant weather delays on this or any other route so IMO flying may not end up any cheaper once you pay for hotels, meals and other charges.
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You're also covering thousands of miles of dense forest, with very few options for emergency landings. Mountains, sea - I personally can't think of anything else that scares me as much as jungle - you go down there and they'll never find you. You could perhaps go up the coast, then cut west at Belem and track the Amazon past Manaus and that way (especially with an amphib), but you'll eventually have to make a choice of going over the Andes or go back up north to the coast. I'm not very familiar with the Andes, but it looks like you could cut across around north of Bogota at a reasonable altitude following the 62 highway.
A great adventure, indeed! I'd fly it, but make plenty of time for the inevitable bad weather and other stuff that you probably will encounter and always have an option.
A great adventure, indeed! I'd fly it, but make plenty of time for the inevitable bad weather and other stuff that you probably will encounter and always have an option.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 1st May 2012 at 06:58.
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It's a difficult conundrum. I'm not familiar with the geography but the number of different border crossings if flying the coastal route might be a factor. It certainly would be a fantastic achievement, especially if you have the luxury of time.
Fly it if you can. I presume you have asked the seller for advice re flying in Brazil?
It may be worthwhile posing the question on some US-based aviation forum - there surely must be some US pilots who have ventured south of Panama.
Not many posts on here regarding S America flight that I can recall, however forumite "Ultra Long Hauler" is based in Ecuador - he may well be able to assist with Andes transit perhaps through Ecuador and on to Panama up the West coast. Suggest you send him a private message.
PS. Search Pprune for "Skyferry" or "A ferry bad experience" and read the threads before you hire a ferry pilot
It may be worthwhile posing the question on some US-based aviation forum - there surely must be some US pilots who have ventured south of Panama.
Not many posts on here regarding S America flight that I can recall, however forumite "Ultra Long Hauler" is based in Ecuador - he may well be able to assist with Andes transit perhaps through Ecuador and on to Panama up the West coast. Suggest you send him a private message.
PS. Search Pprune for "Skyferry" or "A ferry bad experience" and read the threads before you hire a ferry pilot
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The biggest obstacle by far, is your aircraft range - somehow you'll need to add a couple of ferry tanks, otherwise it's going to be a logistical nightmare, organising all these stops & sourcing fuel - and no reserves for bad wx, diversions etc.
How about taking out the right seat and add a 25 gal ferry tank?
Iow, either you or a ferry pilot flies the plane solo.
Also I'd definitely fly VFR coastal. Single engine rotax across the Amazon, through the ITCZ? Well - maybe I'd do it just once for the 'adventure', but no way I'd consider this a "safe" option...
But in regards to your question: Yes, I'd definitely fly it home...ferry trips are amazing.
Btw, why don't you ask SeaMax USA how they ferry the planes to the US. They should know.
How about taking out the right seat and add a 25 gal ferry tank?
Iow, either you or a ferry pilot flies the plane solo.
Also I'd definitely fly VFR coastal. Single engine rotax across the Amazon, through the ITCZ? Well - maybe I'd do it just once for the 'adventure', but no way I'd consider this a "safe" option...
But in regards to your question: Yes, I'd definitely fly it home...ferry trips are amazing.
Btw, why don't you ask SeaMax USA how they ferry the planes to the US. They should know.
Last edited by Hodja; 1st May 2012 at 12:24.
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Thanks for all the great responses. Sorry I didn't check in sooner but I didn't get the notification of postings for some reason.
To address the questions:
1. Putting it in a box is definitely easier and safer, there is no doubt about this. But it is dramatically more expensive - the two biggies being import tax in Panama and the container insurance. The other costs are more or less the same. So I'd like to avoid this if possible.
2. Staying on the Atlantic coast makes sense but it is a long way and involves more border crossings. But potentially safer. I'll play with the flight plan and see.
3. I'm actually working with SeaMax Brazil's owner of the company / designer of the airplane. He's a great guy and has been super helpful. He's flown the aircraft to some pretty wild places before so he is confident that this is a doable trip.
4. I've found out another wrinkle: if I keep the aircraft registered in Brazil, I must have a Brazilian licensed pilot fly it. My licenses are not valid to act as PIC.
5. I totally agree about range being the biggest issue. I contacted Turtle-Pac and they make some very cost-effective solutions, one that would go behind the seats for 2 more hours' flying time and another which could replace the copilot seat and add a lot more. The latter would mean that I couldn't go on the trip but it might make it safer for the ferry pilot.
Thanks again for all the great feedback and please let me know if anyone thinks of any of any other things. I'll keep monitoring and replying to this forum.
Oh, and if anyone is a Brazilian-licensed ferry pilot with a float endorsement who doesn't show up in the search of PPRuNe for "bad ferry experience", please get in contact with me - I have a potentially very fun job for you!
To address the questions:
1. Putting it in a box is definitely easier and safer, there is no doubt about this. But it is dramatically more expensive - the two biggies being import tax in Panama and the container insurance. The other costs are more or less the same. So I'd like to avoid this if possible.
2. Staying on the Atlantic coast makes sense but it is a long way and involves more border crossings. But potentially safer. I'll play with the flight plan and see.
3. I'm actually working with SeaMax Brazil's owner of the company / designer of the airplane. He's a great guy and has been super helpful. He's flown the aircraft to some pretty wild places before so he is confident that this is a doable trip.
4. I've found out another wrinkle: if I keep the aircraft registered in Brazil, I must have a Brazilian licensed pilot fly it. My licenses are not valid to act as PIC.
5. I totally agree about range being the biggest issue. I contacted Turtle-Pac and they make some very cost-effective solutions, one that would go behind the seats for 2 more hours' flying time and another which could replace the copilot seat and add a lot more. The latter would mean that I couldn't go on the trip but it might make it safer for the ferry pilot.
Thanks again for all the great feedback and please let me know if anyone thinks of any of any other things. I'll keep monitoring and replying to this forum.
Oh, and if anyone is a Brazilian-licensed ferry pilot with a float endorsement who doesn't show up in the search of PPRuNe for "bad ferry experience", please get in contact with me - I have a potentially very fun job for you!
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Hi Matt,
I may be able to help you, if you are interested? I am delivering A C207 in French Guyana in about a month from now, flying it over from Europe. So I have the essential equipment, such as a 33 gallon Turtlepac ferry tank, the flight planning software and maps etc. I have previous experience from flying in Brazil!
I have the seaplane rating. But with a FAA license, I am not sure about the legalities here? Do you plan to get the plane on a US registration? Otherwise it probably can be done with a local validation? PM me.
Cheers
Jens
I may be able to help you, if you are interested? I am delivering A C207 in French Guyana in about a month from now, flying it over from Europe. So I have the essential equipment, such as a 33 gallon Turtlepac ferry tank, the flight planning software and maps etc. I have previous experience from flying in Brazil!
I have the seaplane rating. But with a FAA license, I am not sure about the legalities here? Do you plan to get the plane on a US registration? Otherwise it probably can be done with a local validation? PM me.
Cheers
Jens
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I replied via PM but I want to be sure of my response, so I'm going to open this question up to the forum: Is there any way for a FAA-licensed pilot to fly a Brazilian registered aircraft internationally?
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Not many posts on here regarding S America flight that I can recall, however forumite "Ultra Long Hauler" is based in Ecuador - he may well be able to assist with Andes transit perhaps through Ecuador and on to Panama up the West coast. Suggest you send him a private message.
I would definitely recommend transiting through Ecuador if you´re able to do the extra distance--> cheap gas, and literally hundreds of air strips to choose from! Cheap cost of living here too.
Colombia is good too, though Peru is more limited when it comes to landing possibilities. It would be good to follow the PanAmericana highway up North, leaving the Andes as your most obvious challenge. The crossing can be done in Ecuador though, we could be WAY more specific if you´re really interested.
As a club, it would be our pleasure to assist you within Ecuador!
All our planes our Rotax powered (912 & 914)……..and we have THE most knowledgeable guy in Ecuador among us; when it comes to Rotax - and airplane maintenance. Not my words, check with a few airplane manufactures in Colombia!
The last guy leaving Ecuador (in a MXP 740) did so in a plane he bought locally (from our club), and he parked it safely in South Africa a few months later.
My general advice as an enthusiast--> FLY her to Panama and ENJOY it!
Cheers,
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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But it is dramatically more expensive - the two biggies being import tax in Panama and the container insurance.
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Brazil is a nightmare. I've just spent the last few days trying to figure out how to get this plane into a container. It seems that you need to be an "exporter" to ship anything out of Brazil in a container.
But since the seller (a person) isn't an exporter and neither am I and neither of us are companies, it looks like a giant bureaucratic hairball with unknown costs and times.
So I'm back to the idea of flying it. One person PM-ed me and suggested getting the plane N registered to appeal to a broader population of ferry pilots. That would make me legal to fly it as well. Does anyone have experience with N registration of a foreign aircraft? How much would it cost, how long, etc? I am a US citizen with FAA license.
And any ferry pilots with float endorsements now interested? ;-)
But since the seller (a person) isn't an exporter and neither am I and neither of us are companies, it looks like a giant bureaucratic hairball with unknown costs and times.
So I'm back to the idea of flying it. One person PM-ed me and suggested getting the plane N registered to appeal to a broader population of ferry pilots. That would make me legal to fly it as well. Does anyone have experience with N registration of a foreign aircraft? How much would it cost, how long, etc? I am a US citizen with FAA license.
And any ferry pilots with float endorsements now interested? ;-)
If you can wait until early next week, I'll speak with my FAA A&P/IA. He's very familiar with FAA registration. I'd be surprised if he doesn't know how to go about it.
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Ferry Pilot
Hey
Im Portuguese im in Brazil have a ppl vfr, almost finishing cpl ifr multi in 3 weeks.
If you consider keeping the rainforest on the left side during the flight i guess me or another person would love to fly it.
I have flow about a month in the amazon, its no place for a light with a a rotax.
Since its a LSA i dont think it would need a sea rating, the plane its Brazilian register right ?
Regards
Im Portuguese im in Brazil have a ppl vfr, almost finishing cpl ifr multi in 3 weeks.
If you consider keeping the rainforest on the left side during the flight i guess me or another person would love to fly it.
I have flow about a month in the amazon, its no place for a light with a a rotax.
Since its a LSA i dont think it would need a sea rating, the plane its Brazilian register right ?
Regards
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Just remembered if you are going to file and international flight plan in order to leave the country with a Brazilian reg the piloto needs to have ICAO level 4 with is private pilot licence.
A friend of myne i spoke just right now told me LSA wont need any sea rating.
Regards
A friend of myne i spoke just right now told me LSA wont need any sea rating.
Regards
Got to see my maintenance blokes this week. Short answer:
*Reserve an N-reg (if you wish)
*Export CofA from Brazil
*Owned by US citizen, corporation or trust fund
*US CofA & CofR
Longer answer from one of our PPRuNers who's website I stumbled across (the European stuff is irrelevant, but the US rego. stuff is worthwhile for your situation)
Moving to N-reg
*Reserve an N-reg (if you wish)
*Export CofA from Brazil
*Owned by US citizen, corporation or trust fund
*US CofA & CofR
Longer answer from one of our PPRuNers who's website I stumbled across (the European stuff is irrelevant, but the US rego. stuff is worthwhile for your situation)
Moving to N-reg
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 25th May 2012 at 05:59.