Would you be happy for a loved one flying with a brand new PPL?
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Charlie Delta
in some places you may fly an instrument approach to one runway and break off that approach to land on another runway.
You may also do what the FAA call a Circle to land off an ILS where the winds favour the other end of the runway.
As far a the PPL flying VFR ATC may decide to change runways and could offer you the chance of doing a circle from your presnt position onto the new runway.
I think that was what he was talking about when he said orbit.
It is really about spatial awareness and being able to have a good mental picture of where you are and where you want to be.
In that sense its good practice to chop approaches around a bit so that you do not fixate on one circuit pattern.
Pace
in some places you may fly an instrument approach to one runway and break off that approach to land on another runway.
You may also do what the FAA call a Circle to land off an ILS where the winds favour the other end of the runway.
As far a the PPL flying VFR ATC may decide to change runways and could offer you the chance of doing a circle from your presnt position onto the new runway.
I think that was what he was talking about when he said orbit.
It is really about spatial awareness and being able to have a good mental picture of where you are and where you want to be.
In that sense its good practice to chop approaches around a bit so that you do not fixate on one circuit pattern.
Pace
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I think in the context of this thread the expression orbit refers to a 360 degree rate 1 turn from your current position in the circuit (in the direction stated by ATC) at a constant height until advised to continue in the circuit by ATC.
The reference to intersecting runways can best be described by following the example of ATC instructions (its only for VFR circuit work).
The reference to intersecting runways can best be described by following the example of ATC instructions (its only for VFR circuit work).
"G-ABCD Cleared takeoff 33, after departure turn right down wind for 24".
"G-ABCD Cleared touch and go 24 after touch and go position for left hand downwind for 33".
"G-ABCD take up one right hand orbit in current position for traffic seperation. After one orbit continue down wind left hand for 33 - Call turning base leg"
Not only has the runway changed but also the circuit direction, which was common practice at Birmingham Airport for VFR GA circuit Training on locally based aircraft on a calm day in the late 80's. At the time there were four training organisations based at Birmingham airport with approximatly 15 aircraft resident for training
"G-ABCD Cleared touch and go 24 after touch and go position for left hand downwind for 33".
"G-ABCD take up one right hand orbit in current position for traffic seperation. After one orbit continue down wind left hand for 33 - Call turning base leg"
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I dont understand the phrase 'orbit to an intersecting runway'
I agree with what you are saying re an orbit! Orbit in your present position makes sense to maybe let IFR traffic land and gain spacing but orbit TO an intersecting runway would be very odd
Circle to an intersecting runway would make better sense.
Pace
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I dont think I mentioned orbit to an intersecting runway??? To me the next runway direction and circuit may change after a touch and go, but not through an orbit to change runway direction or circuit direction.
For ease - this is BXH back then
For ease - this is BXH back then
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 30th Apr 2012 at 10:21.
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CDU - two separate things here but related by the same point about being useful but students not always taught/get to do them. Orbiting for separation - "charlie delta make/request one right orbit present position" and repositioning for another runway = departing from say rw 31 and immediately being on right base for rw 18 or right downwind for rw 27 say.
As mentioned the positioning for adjacent rw is a useful thing and it does bring the confidence/ability that rote flying the circuit doesn't give. It also does make one ready to deal with runway changes on the fly as required without unduly increasing workload
Orbits are imho slightly more contentious - sometimes necessary when requested by controller, sometimes a good idea when requested by pilot, but never great when someone decides to do an unannounced one on finals. Also low and slowish and I can imagine the tendency to try and keep the turn tight and there is a stall/spin brewing ... The USA seems fonder of them than the UK. Hope this clarifies
As mentioned the positioning for adjacent rw is a useful thing and it does bring the confidence/ability that rote flying the circuit doesn't give. It also does make one ready to deal with runway changes on the fly as required without unduly increasing workload
Orbits are imho slightly more contentious - sometimes necessary when requested by controller, sometimes a good idea when requested by pilot, but never great when someone decides to do an unannounced one on finals. Also low and slowish and I can imagine the tendency to try and keep the turn tight and there is a stall/spin brewing ... The USA seems fonder of them than the UK. Hope this clarifies
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I guess this is thread drift but I hope you won't mind continuing my education...
If you depart on 33 and turn right, won't you be going upwind on the deadside of 24?
So, assuming 24 is a left-hnd circuit, would you climb, turn leftso you are now late downwind for runway 33?
"G-ABCD Cleared takeoff 33, after departure turn right down wind for
24".
24".
"G-ABCD Cleared touch and go 24 after touch and go position for left hand
downwind for 33".
downwind for 33".
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I think this is persuading me that I don't yet have the experience/practice to do the mental gymnastics required. So, if this was me in receipt of such instructions, I guess the safest course of action is to 'fess up to ATC about not understanding and suggest that you depart the circuit and re-position from outside the circuit once you have got sorted out.
I haven't done anything like this, which perhaps confirms what one of the posters was saying about it being good experience. Is this a shortcomning in a new PPL? If so, I'll do something about it before I cause any grief for real.
I haven't done anything like this, which perhaps confirms what one of the posters was saying about it being good experience. Is this a shortcomning in a new PPL? If so, I'll do something about it before I cause any grief for real.
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Not really, your solution is more than sensible.
In fact quite alot of highly experenced pilots would do the same thing after getting scared ****less trying to help out ATC and getting their bums well and truely burned in the past.
One of those ones where experence and cunning means not having to use advanced handling skills to sort a problem out.
In fact quite alot of highly experenced pilots would do the same thing after getting scared ****less trying to help out ATC and getting their bums well and truely burned in the past.
One of those ones where experence and cunning means not having to use advanced handling skills to sort a problem out.
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I see our local schools regularly circling to position on a different runway. It is a three runway field. Last weekend it was being done through necessity as the wind was periodically swinging 90 degrees. Good practice!
If confused, or the circuit is getting congested, clearing the circuit is absolutely the correct thing to do.
Orbiting at a controlled field is OK but a no no at an uncontrolled field as you could be orbiting into the path the following aircraft.
Back to the origional post I would say usually yes but I would want to know the pilot reasonably well and make my judgement based on personality.
D.O.
If confused, or the circuit is getting congested, clearing the circuit is absolutely the correct thing to do.
Orbiting at a controlled field is OK but a no no at an uncontrolled field as you could be orbiting into the path the following aircraft.
Back to the origional post I would say usually yes but I would want to know the pilot reasonably well and make my judgement based on personality.
D.O.
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No - if your father in law sends you solo in 6 hours in a gale he's giving you a small chance. If he sends you solo after 20 hours with a 200 foot cloudbase and a 600m RVR then he hates you!! And he's sadistic to boot.
With regards the situation at Birmingham in the late eighties, there was never a "deadside" Joins were always by ATC instruction and NEVER an overhead join. The circuit direction was not fixed and was dependent on the traffic and the conditions. It could change several times in one session. Students learnt to be flexible and think on their feet, hence why it took longer than average to get them solo.
With respect to an orbit done low - the only time that is likely would be on finals at an uncontrolled field and that is stupidity. If you can't maintain seperation then a missed approach and back into another circuit is the correct thing to do. A Low, slow orbit in approach configuration is asking for an early appointment with the grim reaper.
At a controlled airfield the only leg a controller will ask to an orbit is on the down wind leg, he will have already planned the VFR approaches to slot in with the IFR and/or heavy traffic (for wake seperation) if he has an emergency and your on base or finals he will tell you to go around or go away!! If your on base leg and in a typical club aircraft you will be having a good look at where the heavy touchs down before you and be aiming to land past his touch down point to keep above any residual wake turbulance.
With regards the situation at Birmingham in the late eighties, there was never a "deadside" Joins were always by ATC instruction and NEVER an overhead join. The circuit direction was not fixed and was dependent on the traffic and the conditions. It could change several times in one session. Students learnt to be flexible and think on their feet, hence why it took longer than average to get them solo.
With respect to an orbit done low - the only time that is likely would be on finals at an uncontrolled field and that is stupidity. If you can't maintain seperation then a missed approach and back into another circuit is the correct thing to do. A Low, slow orbit in approach configuration is asking for an early appointment with the grim reaper.
At a controlled airfield the only leg a controller will ask to an orbit is on the down wind leg, he will have already planned the VFR approaches to slot in with the IFR and/or heavy traffic (for wake seperation) if he has an emergency and your on base or finals he will tell you to go around or go away!! If your on base leg and in a typical club aircraft you will be having a good look at where the heavy touchs down before you and be aiming to land past his touch down point to keep above any residual wake turbulance.
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 30th Apr 2012 at 16:54.
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ffs, why would you assume that?
Turns are always made in circuit direction.
So, assuming 24 is a left-hnd circuit, would you climb, turn leftso you are now late downwind for runway 33?
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MJ, that warrents reporting!!
Controllers do make mistakes, they are human, however when they place someone at risk then that is unacceptable. I trust you had words! Especially as the instructor will have spoken to ATC and advised that it was a first solo.
It's almost as bad as IFR traffic being told to maintain visual seperation with the VFR circuit traffic
Controllers do make mistakes, they are human, however when they place someone at risk then that is unacceptable. I trust you had words! Especially as the instructor will have spoken to ATC and advised that it was a first solo.
It's almost as bad as IFR traffic being told to maintain visual seperation with the VFR circuit traffic
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Seeing people orbit on the downwind leg gives me the jitters! ATC instruction or not!
As for flying with new PPL's...well why not! They've proven to an examiner that they are safe and competent. I do think that they may need a close eye kept on them if possible, but this isn't always the case. You could compare it to a new driver passing a driving test. I'd prefer someone to fly with a new PPL then a new driver any day!
And I can't agree more with some of the posts about students/new PPL's being given a bit of breathing space. I can remember doing an hour of circuit bashing, both instructor and me getting more frustrated with my lack of landing finesse...and then him getting out and telling me to go and sort it on my own! It worked 100% and not having the stress of him watching my every move was a key factor!
As for flying with new PPL's...well why not! They've proven to an examiner that they are safe and competent. I do think that they may need a close eye kept on them if possible, but this isn't always the case. You could compare it to a new driver passing a driving test. I'd prefer someone to fly with a new PPL then a new driver any day!
And I can't agree more with some of the posts about students/new PPL's being given a bit of breathing space. I can remember doing an hour of circuit bashing, both instructor and me getting more frustrated with my lack of landing finesse...and then him getting out and telling me to go and sort it on my own! It worked 100% and not having the stress of him watching my every move was a key factor!
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IFR traffic once you accept a visual only has to be passed traffic. And when your talking to tower its the same. Its pilots not knowing the rules which creates the problems. Your on your tod once your start speaking to twr.
I had told the twr that they were first solo and I did speak to the SATCO afterwards who came over and apologised to the student. Although to be honest that particular student was a gliding conversion so if it had to be anyone I was glad it was him.
I had told the twr that they were first solo and I did speak to the SATCO afterwards who came over and apologised to the student. Although to be honest that particular student was a gliding conversion so if it had to be anyone I was glad it was him.
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ffs, why would you assume that?
Quote:
So, assuming 24
is a left-hnd circuit, would you climb, turn leftso you are now late downwind
for runway 33?
Turns are always made in circuit direction.