Would you ever risk someone else's life?
A major point that has not really been mentioned so far.
The important thing is not so much what you do in this situation, as not getting into this situation in the first place.
If the engine stops at 600ft over a beach, your options are extremely limited, and may as the OP points out have a bit of a dilemma about how to act.
But there is absolute choice whilst the engine was running - you do not need to be at 600ft over a crowded beach. We're all taught to think constantly about "what if", particularly with the engine in a single engined aeroplane. You don't need to fly anywhere in particular, at any particular height - because in extremis we have the choice to not take off.
G
The important thing is not so much what you do in this situation, as not getting into this situation in the first place.
If the engine stops at 600ft over a beach, your options are extremely limited, and may as the OP points out have a bit of a dilemma about how to act.
But there is absolute choice whilst the engine was running - you do not need to be at 600ft over a crowded beach. We're all taught to think constantly about "what if", particularly with the engine in a single engined aeroplane. You don't need to fly anywhere in particular, at any particular height - because in extremis we have the choice to not take off.
G
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Speaking of landing on roads - I know it's a few years back that an item turned up on YouTube, entitled "DC10 Lands on Top of a Car".....
I don't know how to post this so you can access it directly, perhaps someone else can help; but it is DEFINITELY not one to miss!
I don't know how to post this so you can access it directly, perhaps someone else can help; but it is DEFINITELY not one to miss!
Gengis, you are of course correct. We don't need to take off.
But sometimes we take off and then have an unexpected (despite full preparation and best planning) change in the weather or a mechanical problem. I well remember a flight from inland France to Calais with a sudden and unexpected change in the weather which led to us moving our flightpath offshore as there was less to hit at the low altitude forced on us in a vfr aircraft. So, yes I was at 600 feet over the beach, with the airport as the best option and the beach as a backup. A 180 turn was not an option, that was closing in faster than in front....as the engine kept turning all was eventually well and we landed at Calais and spent the night there.
Forecasting is still a black art. This was in the days when one could talk to the met man, who had advised us that the incoming frontal system would not arrive before late evening. By 15.00 we got thoroughly caught out as the crud formed around us.
I had a similar experience last week dodging round rain showers, until I could dodge no more as a wall of black cloud blocked my way. That resulted in a scurry back to my departure field and some more waiting as the muck came through.
Sh*t happens, and whilst we should be able to avoid such situations sometimes we do get into difficult corners.
It's an interesting thread, but some of the people posting here are a good deal more altruistic than seems feasible. I don't know if I would be thinking that clearly in the circumstances described, I suspect self preservation would be operating on all four cylinders.
What was it about starting with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience? How many of us have about half a bag of each by now?
But sometimes we take off and then have an unexpected (despite full preparation and best planning) change in the weather or a mechanical problem. I well remember a flight from inland France to Calais with a sudden and unexpected change in the weather which led to us moving our flightpath offshore as there was less to hit at the low altitude forced on us in a vfr aircraft. So, yes I was at 600 feet over the beach, with the airport as the best option and the beach as a backup. A 180 turn was not an option, that was closing in faster than in front....as the engine kept turning all was eventually well and we landed at Calais and spent the night there.
Forecasting is still a black art. This was in the days when one could talk to the met man, who had advised us that the incoming frontal system would not arrive before late evening. By 15.00 we got thoroughly caught out as the crud formed around us.
I had a similar experience last week dodging round rain showers, until I could dodge no more as a wall of black cloud blocked my way. That resulted in a scurry back to my departure field and some more waiting as the muck came through.
Sh*t happens, and whilst we should be able to avoid such situations sometimes we do get into difficult corners.
It's an interesting thread, but some of the people posting here are a good deal more altruistic than seems feasible. I don't know if I would be thinking that clearly in the circumstances described, I suspect self preservation would be operating on all four cylinders.
What was it about starting with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience? How many of us have about half a bag of each by now?
In a C152 with the engine out I think anyone on the ground will be able to get out of the way by walking at a fairly leisurely pace in more or less any direction.
With regard to hang gliders landing in the water, the wing will hold you under with no airspace in which to breathe. Usual advice is:
- climb into the 'A' frame with plenty of height (they can still be controlled by moving your bodyweight), and undo your carabiner, then just before the glider makes contact with the water, jump clear.
- fly with a single carabiner
- use either a 1/4 turn carabiner or one which just springs shut
- and most importantly, don't fly coastal sites with distant bottom landings in marginal conditions
Last edited by Mechta; 20th Apr 2012 at 16:08. Reason: spelling
Avoid imitations
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As far as the UK is concerned, the rules for the London Heli-lanes are a good indicator of how the CAA view this. Some of the routes involve flying over the River Thames. If the engine stops, the designated forced landing area is between the high and low water marks. If you choose to fly a single engined helicopter when the tide's in, it's your choice and no-one else's responsibility. But you must ditch! Floats are a good idea...
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I know there are some on here with a sea plane rating so I'd like to ask them whether they believe their experience of water landings would give them more confidence in ditching, and thus make them more likely to ditch instead of making the best of unsuitable terrain? I know that probably seems like a bit of a silly question but what I'm getting at is do those in the know have extra respect for the sea that perhaps isn't obvious to everyone else?
Personally I don't fancy ditching because I know the sea is not the big "cushion" I'd like to think it is. Impacts can be hard and there is a good chance of going under nose first, and let's face it a good number of GA aircraft have really poor egress to get out in a hurry while underwater.
Personally I don't fancy ditching because I know the sea is not the big "cushion" I'd like to think it is. Impacts can be hard and there is a good chance of going under nose first, and let's face it a good number of GA aircraft have really poor egress to get out in a hurry while underwater.
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Genghis
Being able to swim is not the point. Surviving a ditching (especially in the cold waters around the UK) is more about being able to deal with "swim shock" -- fighting the urge to breath in, triggered by the cold water on the nervous system. Most people can manage about 6 seconds before they give in (even if they can hold their breath under water for minutes in controlled conditions). This means you need to get out of the aircraft and get your head out of the water within those few seconds. Also, if you are in fixed-gear tricycle undercarriage aircraft, there is a high chance the aircraft will flip over when it hits the water. You are then faced with being inverted, possibly sinking, and then having to manage a safe exit from the cockpit without giving in to the urge to breath in....If you are enlightened enough to be wearing an immersion suit, you actually have the added problem of being buoyant inside the aircraft as it sinks inverted i.e., you may be pinned against the floor. Net: as much as I would hate the prospect, the best bet would be to abandon the aircraft and not attempt to ditch it. That's what the RAF taught me, and that's why I wear an immersion-suit, life-jacket with attached dinghy-pack, plus parachute, whenever I fly over open water...which I do most times I fly since I live on an island.
So, in this philosophical debate, I would suggest the solution is to point the aircraft out to sea (to avoid the bystanders, as you rightly assert), and abandon above a safe altitude (if you have the appropriate kit to do so, which you should have).
Being able to swim is not the point. Surviving a ditching (especially in the cold waters around the UK) is more about being able to deal with "swim shock" -- fighting the urge to breath in, triggered by the cold water on the nervous system. Most people can manage about 6 seconds before they give in (even if they can hold their breath under water for minutes in controlled conditions). This means you need to get out of the aircraft and get your head out of the water within those few seconds. Also, if you are in fixed-gear tricycle undercarriage aircraft, there is a high chance the aircraft will flip over when it hits the water. You are then faced with being inverted, possibly sinking, and then having to manage a safe exit from the cockpit without giving in to the urge to breath in....If you are enlightened enough to be wearing an immersion suit, you actually have the added problem of being buoyant inside the aircraft as it sinks inverted i.e., you may be pinned against the floor. Net: as much as I would hate the prospect, the best bet would be to abandon the aircraft and not attempt to ditch it. That's what the RAF taught me, and that's why I wear an immersion-suit, life-jacket with attached dinghy-pack, plus parachute, whenever I fly over open water...which I do most times I fly since I live on an island.
So, in this philosophical debate, I would suggest the solution is to point the aircraft out to sea (to avoid the bystanders, as you rightly assert), and abandon above a safe altitude (if you have the appropriate kit to do so, which you should have).
