Would you ever risk someone else's life?
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In the paraglider context that cannot be true. My neighbours attended an 'extreme' paragliding course. Intention canopy collapses, spinning etc. All done over the sea on the basis that many fewer injuries occured....
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ABDG
I understand your argument re night flight and what would be an accident out of your control ! That's a different matter.
To take to a field with a number of kids and a reasonable chance of hitting one is in your control!
It's a risk you would make a desicion on to save yourself.
That is very different to loosing an engine at night and hitting a house or people on the ground who you did nor know were there. That is an accident out if your control.
Pace
I understand your argument re night flight and what would be an accident out of your control ! That's a different matter.
To take to a field with a number of kids and a reasonable chance of hitting one is in your control!
It's a risk you would make a desicion on to save yourself.
That is very different to loosing an engine at night and hitting a house or people on the ground who you did nor know were there. That is an accident out if your control.
Pace
In the paraglider context that cannot be true. My neighbours attended an 'extreme' paragliding course. Intention canopy collapses, spinning etc. All done over the sea on the basis that many fewer injuries occured....
The other difference here is that during paraglider aerobatics, one of the risks is of the canopy collapsing into a bag of washing. It's the paraglider equivalent of a stall-spin accident whilst turning final. It doesn't really compare with your average forced landing in a tree scenario.
If you crash a glider on land, it's common to survive fairly serious injuries including being knocked unconscious; multiple broken limbs etc.... If you crash in the water something simple like a stuck harness strap or being winded can prove fatal.
I suspect there are a lot of unreported incidents of gliders ditching, as they're likely to be the sort of accidents where you either die or survive without injury. However, it's not a risk to be trifled with.
Last edited by abgd; 19th Apr 2012 at 16:19.
I understand your argument re night flight and what would be an accident out of your control !
The difference is partly one of the degree of risk, which we class as acceptably low. Also, you choose to subject other people to the risk on takeoff (when everything seems normal) rather than later on in the emergency situation when I agree that it's out of your control.
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A number of years ago 120 Sqdn at RAF Kinloss ran a weekend survival course for civilian pilots, mainly aimed at PPLs. Their view was that unless fully-prepared in goon-suit, LSJ, locator etc, then ditching was a last resort. Crash on land rather than ditch was the suggestion. It was in their view a matter of water survival rather than the mechanics of surviving the forced landing on water
A number of years ago 120 Sqdn at RAF Kinloss ran a weekend survival course for civilian pilots, mainly aimed at PPLs. Their view was that unless fully-prepared in goon-suit, LSJ, locator etc, then ditching was a last resort. Crash on land rather than ditch was the suggestion. It was in their view a matter of water survival rather than the mechanics of surviving the forced landing on water
G
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abgd, could you possibly, to avoid misunderstanding, reword your statement: that says, "If you crash a glider on land, it's common to survive fairly serious injuries...." o dear. seems to imply it's common to have serious injuries!"
How about, "when doing a field landing in a glider, it is rare to either damange the glider or yourself!"
BUT. I will share with you a famous water landing made in December, in Wales. Gets dark pretty quick in December, and the glider had not returned from soaring the Black Mountains. All at the club were concerned, sent out the tow plane to search, no luck. Thinking perhaps there has been a fatality....
Fairly dark, about 9 or 10 that evening, the phone rang. The pilot said I'm OK, but there is probably damage to the glider.....I'm at a farmhouse, and the farmer will give me a lift back to the club.
Next day, they hitched up the K18 trailer to a Landrover, and set out off over the hills, and on the other side, there was the Reservoir, and there, undulating in the water, was the glider......
The pilot said later that he couldn't get back over the mountain, so had a choice between a tree landing or a water landing, so chose the reservoir. Then he had a choice betwen the shallow end, or the deep end, so he landed at the shallow end, unlatching his canopy as he touched down. However, the canopy burst open, the water flooded in and SANK the glider, and the pilot was underwater, held down by his straps! which he did manage to undo, and also his parachute straps, and waded to the shore, and through the snow to the only light he could find, the farmhouse.
They managed to fish out the glider, floppy wings and all (the glue had melted overnight) and take it back to the club, and a year or so later it was rebuilt.
The pilot (this was his third unfortunate landing, he had written off two other club gliders elsewhere) then bought his own private glider, which never came to grief. The pilot did well to enjoy hia exciting life, for he passed away a few years later from natural causes.....
So to return to the original question: crowded beach? same ethical problem, you wouldn't land in a school playground either. So ditch in the water; if it is too cold to survive the ditching, there won't be a lot of people in the water anyhow, so close to shore should improve your chances.
How about, "when doing a field landing in a glider, it is rare to either damange the glider or yourself!"
BUT. I will share with you a famous water landing made in December, in Wales. Gets dark pretty quick in December, and the glider had not returned from soaring the Black Mountains. All at the club were concerned, sent out the tow plane to search, no luck. Thinking perhaps there has been a fatality....
Fairly dark, about 9 or 10 that evening, the phone rang. The pilot said I'm OK, but there is probably damage to the glider.....I'm at a farmhouse, and the farmer will give me a lift back to the club.
Next day, they hitched up the K18 trailer to a Landrover, and set out off over the hills, and on the other side, there was the Reservoir, and there, undulating in the water, was the glider......
The pilot said later that he couldn't get back over the mountain, so had a choice between a tree landing or a water landing, so chose the reservoir. Then he had a choice betwen the shallow end, or the deep end, so he landed at the shallow end, unlatching his canopy as he touched down. However, the canopy burst open, the water flooded in and SANK the glider, and the pilot was underwater, held down by his straps! which he did manage to undo, and also his parachute straps, and waded to the shore, and through the snow to the only light he could find, the farmhouse.
They managed to fish out the glider, floppy wings and all (the glue had melted overnight) and take it back to the club, and a year or so later it was rebuilt.
The pilot (this was his third unfortunate landing, he had written off two other club gliders elsewhere) then bought his own private glider, which never came to grief. The pilot did well to enjoy hia exciting life, for he passed away a few years later from natural causes.....
So to return to the original question: crowded beach? same ethical problem, you wouldn't land in a school playground either. So ditch in the water; if it is too cold to survive the ditching, there won't be a lot of people in the water anyhow, so close to shore should improve your chances.
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In a C152 with the engine out I think anyone on the ground will be able to get out of the way by walking at a fairly leisurely pace in more or less any direction. 
How many times have we all picked a field for a PFL only to discover that when we're closer there are sheep or cows in it? You wouldn't pick the sea over the field. If the cows or sheep were a few people walking a dog does that change anything? Obviously you're going to try not to hit them, and they'll be busy trying not to get hit! I think you'd find it harder to hit one of them on purpose than not hit any of them at all.
I'd rather do that too!
How many times have we all picked a field for a PFL only to discover that when we're closer there are sheep or cows in it? You wouldn't pick the sea over the field. If the cows or sheep were a few people walking a dog does that change anything? Obviously you're going to try not to hit them, and they'll be busy trying not to get hit! I think you'd find it harder to hit one of them on purpose than not hit any of them at all.
Crash on land rather than ditch was the suggestion.
Mary, perhaps I could have made it clearer, but I was talking about hang gliders and paragliders in my earlier posts. Both of these can land in places that even your gliders would fear to tread, but pilots of both of them are occasionally forced to crash land on unsuitable terrain.
Anyway, I feel shy that I have probably led the thread astray somewhat. Ideally, we all want to save our own skin whilst not injuring anybody else either. Foot-launch aircraft are obviously very different from class A aircraft, and I just wanted to point out that ditching is actually a big decision, and perhaps provoke some further discussion of the subject.
Perhaps a good ploy for this scenario would be to fly along the water's edge and turn out to sea if, as you get closer, the beach turns out to be more crowded than it initially appeared.
Anyway, I feel shy that I have probably led the thread astray somewhat. Ideally, we all want to save our own skin whilst not injuring anybody else either. Foot-launch aircraft are obviously very different from class A aircraft, and I just wanted to point out that ditching is actually a big decision, and perhaps provoke some further discussion of the subject.
Perhaps a good ploy for this scenario would be to fly along the water's edge and turn out to sea if, as you get closer, the beach turns out to be more crowded than it initially appeared.
Last edited by abgd; 19th Apr 2012 at 19:07.
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When landing a floatplane in the US, the rule is that anything and anyone on or in the water has the right of way, because they don't understand your requirements; this implies no emergency, like nil engine; but just as you can't rely on a sheep not to jump up when your glider floats overhead, you couldn't rely on children to get out of your way when landing on a crowded beach. Golf course should be OK though.....
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ABDG
That would be good situational awareness and a mind that is always ahead of the game and adjusting the aircraft accordingly.
I would hazard a guess that some would not even be aware of the cows or kids in the playground and would land regardless frozen on their target landing spot?
Pace
That would be good situational awareness and a mind that is always ahead of the game and adjusting the aircraft accordingly.
I would hazard a guess that some would not even be aware of the cows or kids in the playground and would land regardless frozen on their target landing spot?
Pace
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I would hazard a guess that some would not even be aware of the cows or kids in the playground and would land regardless frozen on their target landing spot?
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I'd be surprised if everyone managed to land on their target as well.
hence why you bring up a good point! Never be fixated on one possible landing point but always keep alternate options open and be aware of those.Again its called spatial awareness and keeping ahead of the game.
The Sea is a pretty big landing point anyway and might be a better option than a 400 metre stretch of beach
No I do not think all pilots are spatially aware or ahead of the game!!! Some are more than others.
Pace
Go for the water:
Plane kills jogger in S.C. beach emergency landing - USATODAY.com
ADM = Aeronautical decision making, you made the decision to fly there you deal with it........
Plane kills jogger in S.C. beach emergency landing - USATODAY.com
ADM = Aeronautical decision making, you made the decision to fly there you deal with it........
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Obvious - spiral down inland, trim at minimum descent glide speed steer out to sea crossing the coast at about 20 feet, once coasting out exit aircraft, half pike dive into sea (by now over suitable depth) and swim to shore. Can't see what the issue is.
A number of years ago 120 Sqdn at RAF Kinloss ran a weekend survival course for civilian pilots, mainly aimed at PPLs.
I always wear a lifejacket, but my only non wet suit experience in winter was dinghy sailing in the 60s and canoeing till the mid 80s. The effect of being in cold water, wearing warm "ordinary" clothing, varies very much from person to person. I'm optimistic.
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After a loud explosion from the single engined Cessna woke up my sole passenger, I tried to gain additional height and continue flight to my refuelling destination (the closest airstrip around but still another 20 minutes of flying away!) while flying pretty well parallel to the highway below. While “cruising”, I considered my emergency landing options, and the thought of landing besides the highway on the rough, sandy & scrubby terrain didn’t appeal very much, especially considering there was a stretch of bitumen all the way to the airport. I asked Flight Service if I could land on the highway if I had to. There was a pause, but they answered “yes”! I’ll bet a lot of you don’t believe that, but this was in Outback Australia a long time ago.
Now, if I HAD to have landed before getting to my airport, then I would’ve tried to land on the highway in between cars and trucks. In those daze, there wasn’t a lot of traffic on Outback roads! If that wasn’t possible then I would’ve landed besides the highway. And possibly, no, probably have flipped the thing.
BTW, I arrived at my destination a good 4,000’ above the aerodrome. I wasn’t giving away ANY of my height away until I was absolutely positively sure I could circle around and glide if the prop blades stopped suddenly. As it turned out, the head of a cylinder blew off, held on by one bolt, fuel line and spark plug lead, looking like a can with the lid only partially opened.
Now, if I HAD to have landed before getting to my airport, then I would’ve tried to land on the highway in between cars and trucks. In those daze, there wasn’t a lot of traffic on Outback roads! If that wasn’t possible then I would’ve landed besides the highway. And possibly, no, probably have flipped the thing.
BTW, I arrived at my destination a good 4,000’ above the aerodrome. I wasn’t giving away ANY of my height away until I was absolutely positively sure I could circle around and glide if the prop blades stopped suddenly. As it turned out, the head of a cylinder blew off, held on by one bolt, fuel line and spark plug lead, looking like a can with the lid only partially opened.
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Earlier, Pace said:
I agree with this (and the other similar sentiments). I would risk myself over someone on the ground. But what if you had three passengers in the aircraft with you? You have a responsibility to those passengers too. Is it ever acceptable to put someone on the ground in jeopardy in order to minimise risk to your passengers? Or do you fully explain to your passengers the risks involved before they enter the aircraft, including that in the event of an emergency you would put them in jeopardy in order to avoid harm to someone on the ground?
Not trying to be controversial...just found this a thought provoking thread.
We have a responsibility to those on the ground and if I knowingly killed a kid to save my own bacon that would be hard to chew!
Not trying to be controversial...just found this a thought provoking thread.
I agree with this (and the other similar sentiments). I would risk myself over someone on the ground. But what if you had three passengers in the aircraft with you? You have a responsibility to those passengers too.
A good point... Also, people trying to swim to the rescue sometimes drown.
Most beaches I can think of in the UK are empty enough that I would aim to get the aircraft down on the beach rather than in the water.
At my local beach, I know the aircraft would sink in and it could well be impossible to get it moved to safety before the tide came in, so 'saving the plane' really would be a secondary issue. I'm also aware that swimming there is quasi-suicidal at the best of times due to complicated currents.