Perfect RT
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 44
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From: England
Perfect RT
According to CAP413:
If you do the radio check and then immediately call for departure information, do you need to repeat "Borton Tower"?
I don't know how pernickety the examiners are for the RT practical, so obviously don't want to risk getting anything wrong.
Thanks
Borton Tower, G-ABCD, radio check 118.7
G-ABCD, Borton Tower, readability 5
Borton Tower, G-ABCD, Slingsby
T67 starting, request departure
information
G-ABCD, Borton Tower, readability 5
Borton Tower, G-ABCD, Slingsby
T67 starting, request departure
information
I don't know how pernickety the examiners are for the RT practical, so obviously don't want to risk getting anything wrong.
Thanks
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 519
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From: London
Not sure where that snuck in from, some grey matter somewhere has it lodged.
From Wikipedia:
Maritime/Amateur VHF prowordsRadio Check
What is my signal strength and readability; how do you hear me?
5 by 5 is an older term used to assess radio signals, as in 5 out of 5 units for signal strength and for readability. Other terms similar to 5x5 are "loud and clear" or "Lima and Charlie". Example:
ALPHA 12: X-RAY Two-Three, THIS IS ALPHA One-Two, RADIO CHECK, OVER X-RAY 23: ALPHA One-Two, THIS IS X-RAY Two-Three, I READ YOU 5 BY 5, OVER ALPHA 12: ALPHA One-Two ROGER, OUT US Army correct check:
ALPHA 12: X-RAY Two-Three, THIS IS ALPHA One-Two, RADIO CHECK, OVER X-RAY 23: ALPHA One-Two, THIS IS X-RAY Two-Three, ROGER OUT If the initiating station (ALPHA 12 in the example) cannot hear the responding station (X-RAY 23 above), then the initiator will attempt a radio-check again, or if the responder's signal was not heard, the intiator will reply to the responder with "NEGATIVE CONTACT, ALPHA 12 OUT".
The following readability scale is used: 1 = Bad (unreadable); 2 = Poor (readable now and then); 3 = Fair (readable but with difficulty); 4 = Good (readable); 5 = Excellent (perfectly readable).
What is my signal strength and readability; how do you hear me?
5 by 5 is an older term used to assess radio signals, as in 5 out of 5 units for signal strength and for readability. Other terms similar to 5x5 are "loud and clear" or "Lima and Charlie". Example:
ALPHA 12: X-RAY Two-Three, THIS IS ALPHA One-Two, RADIO CHECK, OVER X-RAY 23: ALPHA One-Two, THIS IS X-RAY Two-Three, I READ YOU 5 BY 5, OVER ALPHA 12: ALPHA One-Two ROGER, OUT US Army correct check:
ALPHA 12: X-RAY Two-Three, THIS IS ALPHA One-Two, RADIO CHECK, OVER X-RAY 23: ALPHA One-Two, THIS IS X-RAY Two-Three, ROGER OUT If the initiating station (ALPHA 12 in the example) cannot hear the responding station (X-RAY 23 above), then the initiator will attempt a radio-check again, or if the responder's signal was not heard, the intiator will reply to the responder with "NEGATIVE CONTACT, ALPHA 12 OUT".
The following readability scale is used: 1 = Bad (unreadable); 2 = Poor (readable now and then); 3 = Fair (readable but with difficulty); 4 = Good (readable); 5 = Excellent (perfectly readable).
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,626
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From: UK
If you do the radio check and then immediately call for departure information, do you need to repeat "Borton Tower"?
1.7.5 When satisfactory communication has been established, and provided that it will not
be confusing, the name of the location or the callsign suffix may be omitted.
be confusing, the name of the location or the callsign suffix may be omitted.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
From: UK
I'm an ATCO at a tower/radar unit. Practically, when you get in your aeroplane don't bother with the radio check as a routine. Just call for clearance/taxi/whatever - you'll soon find out/be told if your radio isn't working. Having said that, do whatever they want you to in order to pass the exam then you can relax into your own style.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 58
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From: This green and pleasant land
RT
There is another thing to thatch out for. I was listening to a student complain to his instructor that the air to ground and AFIS stations he'd called whilst inbound in the last 2 flights had been too helpful in giving out the airfield information the minute he'd announced, "Station radio this is G-WXYZ", meaning he didn't get to proactive his full, "G-WXYZ is a Cessna 152, Leicester to Sywel, currently etc."
I have found this too and although if you're use to listening for it, it helps reduce time on the radio, for those learning, it doesn't help, and also usually catches them before they've picked their pen out of their kneeboard!
I have found this too and although if you're use to listening for it, it helps reduce time on the radio, for those learning, it doesn't help, and also usually catches them before they've picked their pen out of their kneeboard!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
At the risk of being rude this lesser being from the colonies has a suggestion. If the amount of effort Brit pilots put into discussing radio pedantry was put into say, learning how to properly use the carb heat and mixture controls, I bet there would be fewer accidents 
My all time favorite radio dit was a conversation I heard on Seattle terminal one busy Friday afternoon.
ATC 12 Alpha Bravo cleared direct XXXXX, descend Fifty Five Hundred, gimme your best speed, contact Seattle Approach on 123.45 with your heading. (this was delivered all in one breath and very fast)
12AB (in a very deep Southern accent and slowly) Saaay Aaahgin
ATC : 12 Alpha Bravo cleared direct XXXXX, descend Fifty Five Hundred, gimme your best speed, contact Seattle Approach on 123.45 with your heading. (Again all in one breath and speaking very fast)
12AB: Saaaay Aaahgin
ATC: ( in a very exasperated tone) 12AB, what is your problem, you need to get with the program.
12AB: ( slowly and at a very deliberate pace) Sor.... Ahhhh liisssten the saaame way ahhhh talk
My all time favorite radio dit was a conversation I heard on Seattle terminal one busy Friday afternoon.
ATC 12 Alpha Bravo cleared direct XXXXX, descend Fifty Five Hundred, gimme your best speed, contact Seattle Approach on 123.45 with your heading. (this was delivered all in one breath and very fast)
12AB (in a very deep Southern accent and slowly) Saaay Aaahgin
ATC : 12 Alpha Bravo cleared direct XXXXX, descend Fifty Five Hundred, gimme your best speed, contact Seattle Approach on 123.45 with your heading. (Again all in one breath and speaking very fast)
12AB: Saaaay Aaahgin
ATC: ( in a very exasperated tone) 12AB, what is your problem, you need to get with the program.
12AB: ( slowly and at a very deliberate pace) Sor.... Ahhhh liisssten the saaame way ahhhh talk
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 15th April 2012 at 22:59.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
Just call for clearance/taxi/whatever - you'll soon find out/be told if your radio isn't working.
"Station calling xxx, carrier wave only"
I discovered that I'd somehow managed to plug my headset leads into the sockets for the right-hand seat. This was, I think, the only occasion on which, after moving the plugs to the correct sockets, I've ever called for a radio check.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,400
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Just call for clearance/taxi/whatever - you'll soon find out/be told if your radio isn't working.
As for those self-appointed street-rapper DJs masquerading as ATCOs in the States, they should remember the maxim "Speak fast, speak twice!" - come out with a rapid fire string of instructions and you'll only have to repeat them!
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 23
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From: UK
If you do it as close to CAP413 as memory allows you can't go wrong! Not sure if you're allowed crib sheets with the format for different calls? Ie
-ground station
-aircraft callsign
-request
-etc.
Suppose it depends on the examiner.
-ground station
-aircraft callsign
-request
-etc.
Suppose it depends on the examiner.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14
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From: Essex
I've found that CAP 413 is a great guide throughout my training but have also found that you can't just learn it parrot fashion. For example, yesterday I requested engine start and the controller came back with engine start approved and gave me taxi instructions for departure.
I'm not saying there was a problem with that, it did reduce the amount of transmissions I had to make. The only thing was I wasn't quite ready to note down the info, but did manage to repeat back from memory.
I'm not saying there was a problem with that, it did reduce the amount of transmissions I had to make. The only thing was I wasn't quite ready to note down the info, but did manage to repeat back from memory.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 17
From: London
sometimes there is a small difference between what the pooley's books say in terms of RT procedures, and what the phrases used at the local airfields are.
when i was in training I just learned from the instructor -
"G-CEEV request radio check and taxi"
"G-CEEV you are fives, QNH xxxx, taxi via bravo and alpha to the holding point"
In the RT test I just made the call in the same way as I did the lessons and it was fine. I guess if the examiner teaches at the airfield they will be ok with it, even if it's not exactly as outlined in CAP413.
i prefer a radio check, seeing as the aircraft we fly aren't the newest... 
when i was in training I just learned from the instructor -
"G-CEEV request radio check and taxi"
"G-CEEV you are fives, QNH xxxx, taxi via bravo and alpha to the holding point"
In the RT test I just made the call in the same way as I did the lessons and it was fine. I guess if the examiner teaches at the airfield they will be ok with it, even if it's not exactly as outlined in CAP413.
Just call for clearance/taxi/whatever - you'll soon find out/be told if your radio isn't working.
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4
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From: Netherthorpe
If you listern out for long enough you will find every one makes mistakes. 
There is some very poor RT around from even the best pilots and controllers.
If your losing sleep about doing your RT oral exam (like I was) book a few hours ground school with your examiner before your test. he/she will set you straight, i did a day at gamston with "True" had blast and learnt loads! then did the exam worth every penny.
Who you are
Where you are
What you want
read back all instructions and anything with numbers in
works for me
There is some very poor RT around from even the best pilots and controllers.
If your losing sleep about doing your RT oral exam (like I was) book a few hours ground school with your examiner before your test. he/she will set you straight, i did a day at gamston with "True" had blast and learnt loads! then did the exam worth every penny.
Who you are
Where you are
What you want
read back all instructions and anything with numbers in
works for me
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 555
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From: Cilboldentune, Britannia
Don't you think that there's to much pedantry on this subject; one pilot accusing another of not quite using the exact phrase as per CAP413 and showing their superiority. GAL comes to mind, as long as you make yourself understood that's the main thing and not intimidated so much that you don't make the call at all. Over and out! Is that still in CAP413?
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 246
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From: UK
Standard RTF is the best way to be understood, that is the whole point of it. It has helped me out on numerous occasions with pilots with a heavy accent (and of course to them I also have a heavy accent!). Not only that, but it makes you sound like you know what you are doing and therefore you're more likely to get what you want.
Not sure if you were trolling or not, but "over and out" most definitely is not in any publication. It means "my transmission is ended and I expect a response and my transmission is ended and I do not expect a response", which is obviously nonsensical.
Not sure if you were trolling or not, but "over and out" most definitely is not in any publication. It means "my transmission is ended and I expect a response and my transmission is ended and I do not expect a response", which is obviously nonsensical.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Cilboldentune, Britannia
By implication the words 'over, out and roger' are still in use see below:-
CAP413
1.1.5 The following words may be omitted from transmissions provided that no confusion
or ambiguity may result:
a) 'Surface' and 'knots' in relation to surface wind direction and speed.
b) 'Degrees' in relation to surface wind direction.
c) 'Visibility', 'cloud' and 'height' in meteorological reports.
d) 'over', 'Roger' and 'out'.
1.1.6 The excessive use of courtesies should be avoided.
1.1.5 The following words may be omitted from transmissions provided that no confusion
or ambiguity may result:
a) 'Surface' and 'knots' in relation to surface wind direction and speed.
b) 'Degrees' in relation to surface wind direction.
c) 'Visibility', 'cloud' and 'height' in meteorological reports.
d) 'over', 'Roger' and 'out'.
1.1.6 The excessive use of courtesies should be avoided.