Perfect RT
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I see your CAP413 and raise you CAP493:
So yes, they do still exist but aren't required in normal VHF comms. (Incidentally my post above was about the oft misquoted phrase "over AND out" loved so much by fiction, not about the individual phrases "over" and "out".)
CAP493
Appendix E 3.6
...
OUT(1) This conversation is ended and I expect no response.
OVER(1) My transmission is ended and I expect a response from you.
(1) Not normally used in VHF communications.
...
Appendix E 3.6
...
OUT(1) This conversation is ended and I expect no response.
OVER(1) My transmission is ended and I expect a response from you.
(1) Not normally used in VHF communications.
...
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When working A/G I use 'roger' in reply to almost every aircraft transmission of intention or position report that requires no other response, at busy times I'll add the call sign. I use 'Out' after broadcast transmissions, for example reporting a change in QNH/QFE. 'Over' is the only one I don't ever use.
We get a lot of 'request taxi' and other such invalid transmissions related to communications specific to other types of facility. Not a complaint simply an observation.
Departue A/G - initial contact:
"Goodchap Radio, G-ABCD request radio check and airfield information" and "G-ABCD ready for departure".
Arrival A/G - initial contact:
"Goodchap Radio, G-ABCD at Location request airfield information".
The CAA released a supplement to CAP413 including audio of the radio calls used for each type of ATS being used. I have this found very handy - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413Supplement.pdf
In moments of thoughtlessness, high workload or stress my comms when flying have been pretty awful so no stones will ever be thrown in this glass house.
We get a lot of 'request taxi' and other such invalid transmissions related to communications specific to other types of facility. Not a complaint simply an observation.
Departue A/G - initial contact:
"Goodchap Radio, G-ABCD request radio check and airfield information" and "G-ABCD ready for departure".
Arrival A/G - initial contact:
"Goodchap Radio, G-ABCD at Location request airfield information".
The CAA released a supplement to CAP413 including audio of the radio calls used for each type of ATS being used. I have this found very handy - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413Supplement.pdf
In moments of thoughtlessness, high workload or stress my comms when flying have been pretty awful so no stones will ever be thrown in this glass house.
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Those who incline to the view that correct R/T terminology is pedantry might do well to remember that the worst accident in aviation history happened because of gash R/T procedures.
It is either right or wrong...end of story. 999/1000 you do it wrong, no problem. Unfortunately sh1t happens.
It is either right or wrong...end of story. 999/1000 you do it wrong, no problem. Unfortunately sh1t happens.
We get a lot of 'request taxi' and other such invalid transmissions related to communications specific to other types of facility. Not a complaint simply an observation.
It can be difficult, away from home base, to be absolutely clear what level of communication is required at a specific site.
Speaking for myself, if in doubt and it's quiet - I'll tend to slightly over-communicate. If in doubt, and it's busy, I'll give an absolute minimum assuming that if I missed anything important, they'll ask. It seems to work.
G
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A pilot requesting entry & line up at an A/G field & then sitting there for ten minutes holding things up waiting for permission.
I would much rather see the correct knowledge of various procedures than piss about with pedantics. People who learn at A/G fields don't just blunder into the threshold with "XXX entering the active" when they are at an ATC field. Or do they??
I would much rather see the correct knowledge of various procedures than piss about with pedantics. People who learn at A/G fields don't just blunder into the threshold with "XXX entering the active" when they are at an ATC field. Or do they??
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Oh yes they do! Certainly we've had a few runway incursions over the last couple of years after the ATCO has said "taxi holding point G6 and report ready for departure" and the pilot has taken that as line-up clearance. I've also had it the other way, where someone has been at the holding point and I've cleared them for take-off, then they've replied "Runway 21 cleared for take off, confirm I can line up?". Yes, that generally sounds like a good idea.
"Your discretion" generally solves most problems at that juncture.
Popham do this, it works fine. "readability 5, QNH is nnnn, taxi at your discretion", "line up and take-off at your discretion". No impression of a clearance, but communication flow is maintained and everybody is happy.
(At-least Popham used to do that, I haven't been a club member there for a few years, more's the pity - great club. I'm only guessing that they still do it that way.)
G
Popham do this, it works fine. "readability 5, QNH is nnnn, taxi at your discretion", "line up and take-off at your discretion". No impression of a clearance, but communication flow is maintained and everybody is happy.
(At-least Popham used to do that, I haven't been a club member there for a few years, more's the pity - great club. I'm only guessing that they still do it that way.)
G
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Genghis not a problem and a good approach to RT at A/G, we are not that anal over the RT used but there some wonderful extreme examples. I agree it can difficult to know exactly what to say as there are local variations of what some airfields like you to pass them on initial contact.
From my observations over the last few years it seems to me when initial training was at an ATC field then you are more likely to fall into that terminology and request / report everything and anything. Crash One - only the other week a pilot did exactly that, lined up and waited for clearance to depart, even asked for it when we didn't say anything. Potentially frustrating for some but no real stress in the tower
Perhaps the subject of another thread but what I am most concerned about is the almost 100% failure to declare 'Student G-XXXX' on initial contact. If I know it's a student I am certainly far more aware of and alert to their calls and where they are (should be), particularly when inbound and in the circuit, even to the gaps between calls and when I have a choice of which station to speak to first when 2 call at once. I might add - as are all the other aircraft on frequency. This adds considerably to flight safety and is not being used - instructors are you aware of this?
From my observations over the last few years it seems to me when initial training was at an ATC field then you are more likely to fall into that terminology and request / report everything and anything. Crash One - only the other week a pilot did exactly that, lined up and waited for clearance to depart, even asked for it when we didn't say anything. Potentially frustrating for some but no real stress in the tower
Perhaps the subject of another thread but what I am most concerned about is the almost 100% failure to declare 'Student G-XXXX' on initial contact. If I know it's a student I am certainly far more aware of and alert to their calls and where they are (should be), particularly when inbound and in the circuit, even to the gaps between calls and when I have a choice of which station to speak to first when 2 call at once. I might add - as are all the other aircraft on frequency. This adds considerably to flight safety and is not being used - instructors are you aware of this?
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I've never quite got the hang of what I'm supposed to say at A/G fields - I use them so rarely and they all seem to be different.
The most recent one I took off from, they told me at the desk to book out on the radio. So I called
"xx radio, G-ABCD, taxi for VFR flight to yyyy, three on board"
roughly as I would at an ATC field and got
"G-ABCD, runway in use xx, QNH yyyy"
which worked fine.
The most recent one I took off from, they told me at the desk to book out on the radio. So I called
"xx radio, G-ABCD, taxi for VFR flight to yyyy, three on board"
roughly as I would at an ATC field and got
"G-ABCD, runway in use xx, QNH yyyy"
which worked fine.
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I've never quite got the hang of what I'm supposed to say at A/G fields - I use them so rarely and they all seem to be different.
The most recent one I took off from, they told me at the desk to book out on the radio. So I called
"xx radio, G-ABCD, taxi for VFR flight to yyyy, three on board"
roughly as I would at an ATC field and got
"G-ABCD, runway in use xx, QNH yyyy"
which worked fine.
The most recent one I took off from, they told me at the desk to book out on the radio. So I called
"xx radio, G-ABCD, taxi for VFR flight to yyyy, three on board"
roughly as I would at an ATC field and got
"G-ABCD, runway in use xx, QNH yyyy"
which worked fine.
For those who might be students or have an interest our 'book out on the radio' (A/G) is;
"xx radio, G-ABCD request radio check and airfield information, flight to yyyy, 3 POB"
Reply would be - "G-ABCD, xx radio, readability X, runway in use XX right/left hand circuit, QNH xxxx"
The CAA approved RT examiner chap conducting my A/G exam suggested passing the surface wind information on initial contact in or outbound but I don't unless the wind is such that it might be of concern to the pilot.
