First land away
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First land away
Hi Everyone
I'm going to be doing my first land away next weekend, will be flying Stapleford - Lydd and back with my instructor. Really looking forward to it and want to be as prepared as possible. There's one thing that I'm unsure about which is what the procedure will be for exiting the Lydd circuit on the return trip.
The Lydd AIP states
If runway 21 is the active then turn left/right at 500ft (or end of upwind leg). Keeping clear of power station and danger areas.
If runway 03 is the active then turn left/right at 500ft (or end of upwind leg).
But what happens then...? On the return journey I want to fly north towards Ashford.
How do you exit the circuit?
Do you climb to and maintain circuit altitude 1000ft until zone boundary?
Do you request an altitude to fly to?
I'm sure there's an easy answer and maybe it just depends on what you request from ATC before take-off.
Any help or other advice for the first land away would be great.
Cheers
Rob
I'm going to be doing my first land away next weekend, will be flying Stapleford - Lydd and back with my instructor. Really looking forward to it and want to be as prepared as possible. There's one thing that I'm unsure about which is what the procedure will be for exiting the Lydd circuit on the return trip.
The Lydd AIP states
If runway 21 is the active then turn left/right at 500ft (or end of upwind leg). Keeping clear of power station and danger areas.
If runway 03 is the active then turn left/right at 500ft (or end of upwind leg).
But what happens then...? On the return journey I want to fly north towards Ashford.
How do you exit the circuit?
Do you climb to and maintain circuit altitude 1000ft until zone boundary?
Do you request an altitude to fly to?
I'm sure there's an easy answer and maybe it just depends on what you request from ATC before take-off.
Any help or other advice for the first land away would be great.
Cheers
Rob
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If you're really unsure you could phone the tower when you get to Lydd and ask. Or on the radio you could ask for a left (or right ) hand turn out when you're getting taxi instructions to depart.
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Lydd just has an ATZ - it doesn't have controlled airspace. Therefore I would expect that on take off, you can climb and turn to your cruising altitude as soon as you are able. You just need to be aware of inbound traffic. I would get above circuit height as soon as possible. Just make sure you don't head anywhere near the danger areas to the South of the field...
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What's going to happen is when you call up for taxi with the usual persons onboard, outbound to your destination, bla, bla, the controller then knows which way you'll be routing. So on departure from 21, he'll probably say "cleared for takeoff, right turn". Just as you've finished your turn he will probably ask you "G-XXXX, which altitude are you climbing to?". And after that he'll say "report Ashford", or Rye, Tenterden or Folkestone or wherever makes sense with your routing. Simple as that.
Lydd is a very friendly field with good controllers. Only gotcha is the two restricted areas over the power station and the firing range. They're not always active, but it will say so on the ATIS.
Lydd is a very friendly field with good controllers. Only gotcha is the two restricted areas over the power station and the firing range. They're not always active, but it will say so on the ATIS.
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It is interesting how many questions have been asked in here lately that the OPs should have asked their flying instructors.
I do wonder how we ever coped with our first land aways before the days of internet forums. I asked my instructor
In those halcyon days 30 years ago, the club I learnt with got their students to choose their own X/C route. I chose Southend-Redhill-Shoreham-Southend, with a Gatwick O/H transit so I could see the airport. I wonder what the PPRune cognoscenti would make of that?
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I didn't have to ask my instructor....he instructed me and then asked me if I had any questions.
Surely it hasn't changed that much?
As it happens, my first land away was Cambridge the day before I did it solo. My instructor took me to the tower, introduced me to the ATC and asked him to keep an eye out for me the next day..should I be "fortunate enough to find the airfield again.."
Surely it hasn't changed that much?
As it happens, my first land away was Cambridge the day before I did it solo. My instructor took me to the tower, introduced me to the ATC and asked him to keep an eye out for me the next day..should I be "fortunate enough to find the airfield again.."
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Oh, give the guy a break! Of course he'll ask his instructor. He's just excited and wants to be as prepared as he can be in advance of turning up for the flight. This is a good thing and shows he has the right attitude to learning.
I know I'm guilty of asking similar questions while I was training, all of which were still run past my instructor, as the 'definitive' source. While I wasn't flying, I wanted to be discussing flying. And where better to do that than here.
Good luck Rob, and keep the questions coming
I know I'm guilty of asking similar questions while I was training, all of which were still run past my instructor, as the 'definitive' source. While I wasn't flying, I wanted to be discussing flying. And where better to do that than here.
Good luck Rob, and keep the questions coming
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I've not technically done a land away - but I have taken off from not my home airport (I was in the back on the way there...). Before doing it I discussed it at length with my instructor, and he had me prepared to do PPR (although in the end the other student did it). Surely I'm not just lucky with my instructor?
Agree though about the questions - this is a great place to get extra information - if you are already in the right mental place when talking to your instructor, you will get more out of it. If you can get a start from what you read here, you can then take it to your instructor and discuss.
Knowing what isn't right (and the reasons) is often as important as what is right.
Agree though about the questions - this is a great place to get extra information - if you are already in the right mental place when talking to your instructor, you will get more out of it. If you can get a start from what you read here, you can then take it to your instructor and discuss.
Knowing what isn't right (and the reasons) is often as important as what is right.
Last edited by riverrock83; 10th Apr 2012 at 21:31. Reason: update after post before mine
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Thanks to those who have given positive feedback, it's very useful to draw from the experience of many others. Will be discussing with my instructor as well, but do feel a bit more prepared now.
I think part of the confusion was down to the fact I've never flown from an airfield with ATC. Stapleford has a radio operator and I've become quite familiar with their circuit joins and exits. Looking forward to a new challenge!
Thanks again for the input, will provide an update on how it goes. Fingers crossed for the weather.
I think part of the confusion was down to the fact I've never flown from an airfield with ATC. Stapleford has a radio operator and I've become quite familiar with their circuit joins and exits. Looking forward to a new challenge!
Thanks again for the input, will provide an update on how it goes. Fingers crossed for the weather.
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Back to the original question.
First, there may be official exit routes prescribed in the AIP. In that case, you just pick the "departure" that is most suitable and fly it. Also in the AIP will be a list of noise-sensitive areas and other no-go places. Obviously whatever you do, avoid these.
If there are no official departures listed, then you generally leave the circuit on the crosswind leg. Once clear of the circuit, turn to your heading. Vertically, just keep on climbing until you are at the cruise level. More often than not you will find you exit the circuit on crosswind while climbing through the circuit altitude (usually between 700' and 1000' AGL).
If you need to overfly the airfield to reach a "downwind" destination, do so at an altitude that is well above circuit height (>1000' above circuit height normally). So you climb to that altitude upwind of the field, and only then cross over the field en-route to your destination. But don't do this with an airfield that has overhead joins or other activity in the overhead, unless you are well above that altitude as well. In that situation, it's better to fly a wide circle around the field (outside the ATZ if there is one).
What I have also done, when I needed to fly to a destination "downwind", was simply fly the circuit at circuit altitude until the end of downwind, and turn towards my destination from there. (If you do so, make sure you announce your intentions on the radio, otherwise it will confuse the other people in the circuit: They'll think you'll simply fly a bomber circuit and will follow you on "downwind" until their frustration with you takes over. And because of that, this might not be a good idea when there is non-radio traffic about.)
Most importantly, study the arrival procedure so you know where the traffic is coming from, how & at what altitudes it will integrate into the circuit, and where the circuit is. Try not to mix with these arrivals. And if you have to, make sure you follow their circuits and don't fly against them.
Particularly if the airfield is using an overhead join, you need to make sure you don't interfere with it. So fly away (from crosswind, or the end of downwind) at approximately circuit altitude until well clear of the field and the OHJs (and outside the ATZ if there is one), and only then climb to the cruise altitude.
It's all a matter of common sense, really. And sometimes there are airfields that seem to be wedged into some impossibly complicated bit of airspace, with restrictions everywhere, and you really are better off calling the airfield beforehand and asking them what the procedure is. Most of these are PPR anyway.
(Don't dread a PPR call. Most airfields are happy to see you come because you are their customer and their only source of income. They just want to make sure you don't kill yourself by flying against a nasty obstacle or another aircraft, or upsetting the neighbors.)
First, there may be official exit routes prescribed in the AIP. In that case, you just pick the "departure" that is most suitable and fly it. Also in the AIP will be a list of noise-sensitive areas and other no-go places. Obviously whatever you do, avoid these.
If there are no official departures listed, then you generally leave the circuit on the crosswind leg. Once clear of the circuit, turn to your heading. Vertically, just keep on climbing until you are at the cruise level. More often than not you will find you exit the circuit on crosswind while climbing through the circuit altitude (usually between 700' and 1000' AGL).
If you need to overfly the airfield to reach a "downwind" destination, do so at an altitude that is well above circuit height (>1000' above circuit height normally). So you climb to that altitude upwind of the field, and only then cross over the field en-route to your destination. But don't do this with an airfield that has overhead joins or other activity in the overhead, unless you are well above that altitude as well. In that situation, it's better to fly a wide circle around the field (outside the ATZ if there is one).
What I have also done, when I needed to fly to a destination "downwind", was simply fly the circuit at circuit altitude until the end of downwind, and turn towards my destination from there. (If you do so, make sure you announce your intentions on the radio, otherwise it will confuse the other people in the circuit: They'll think you'll simply fly a bomber circuit and will follow you on "downwind" until their frustration with you takes over. And because of that, this might not be a good idea when there is non-radio traffic about.)
Most importantly, study the arrival procedure so you know where the traffic is coming from, how & at what altitudes it will integrate into the circuit, and where the circuit is. Try not to mix with these arrivals. And if you have to, make sure you follow their circuits and don't fly against them.
Particularly if the airfield is using an overhead join, you need to make sure you don't interfere with it. So fly away (from crosswind, or the end of downwind) at approximately circuit altitude until well clear of the field and the OHJs (and outside the ATZ if there is one), and only then climb to the cruise altitude.
It's all a matter of common sense, really. And sometimes there are airfields that seem to be wedged into some impossibly complicated bit of airspace, with restrictions everywhere, and you really are better off calling the airfield beforehand and asking them what the procedure is. Most of these are PPR anyway.
(Don't dread a PPR call. Most airfields are happy to see you come because you are their customer and their only source of income. They just want to make sure you don't kill yourself by flying against a nasty obstacle or another aircraft, or upsetting the neighbors.)
Last edited by BackPacker; 11th Apr 2012 at 08:20.
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They'll think you'll simply fly a bomber circuit and will follow you on "downwind" until their frustration with you takes over.
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I went to lydd once , couldn't find it to start with ! at the time of year i went it blended in with the marsh .
On departure ATC said report passing the royal military canal which again i didn't know which one was the canal !
Good luck it will be no problem
On departure ATC said report passing the royal military canal which again i didn't know which one was the canal !
Good luck it will be no problem
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Yes, Lydd is very hard to spot, even in clear weather.
Your arrival will be slightly non standard. You report inbound at Rye, Tenterden, Ashford or Folkestone with your ATIS and all that. Then they'll say "report at 4nm DME" to LYD, and after that, if you're landing at 21, they'll ask you to "report overhead threshold 03". Normally they'll just say "report overhead" and assume you know that the arrivals at Lydd are not center crossings, but threshold crossings from the dead side. You cross the threshold at 1500ft and the descend to the downwind arriving at 1000ft. If you're landing at 03 it's a right hand circuit. Only thing at 03 is that the base leg has to be kept pretty tight, or else you'll bust the restricted areas.
Your arrival will be slightly non standard. You report inbound at Rye, Tenterden, Ashford or Folkestone with your ATIS and all that. Then they'll say "report at 4nm DME" to LYD, and after that, if you're landing at 21, they'll ask you to "report overhead threshold 03". Normally they'll just say "report overhead" and assume you know that the arrivals at Lydd are not center crossings, but threshold crossings from the dead side. You cross the threshold at 1500ft and the descend to the downwind arriving at 1000ft. If you're landing at 03 it's a right hand circuit. Only thing at 03 is that the base leg has to be kept pretty tight, or else you'll bust the restricted areas.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 11th Apr 2012 at 10:25.
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But by the end of your downwind leg you'll be 1000' above the circuit, so they won't even see you because they won't be looking up there?
It does have an SRZ carved out of the class A though, so the ATZ extends to 3500', but I was leaving the ATZ in the direction of Schiphol so had to duck below the 1500' shelf. Plus the SRZ means there's a lot of activity in the direct overhead, such as aerobatics and helicopter PFLs.
Lelystad also has a mandatory VRP well to the south plus a microlight VRP, approach & circuit to the north, a gliding site to the south-east and a few noise sensitive areas around. So if I were to leave the circuit on crosswind, I would have to fly at least about 10 nm around the field to get on course. That's why I essentially followed the circuit (although I did climb to 1000', instead of the 700' circuit height) and left the circuit/ATZ by simply continuing on downwind.
Mind you, it's not something I advocate as standard but sometimes a departure like this is the easiest and most efficient procedure.
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It was great, huge buzz but slightly scary at the same time! Flew down to Bewl Water first and then headed towards Lydd. Workload was quite intense, tune ATIS, contact approach with position at Tenterden, report 4 miles, contact tower... etc.
Return trip was fine as well; we were on runway 03 and the controller gave instructions for a left turnout after takeoff, which was exactly what I needed. Then once at Ashford requested Southend Radar and flew back to Stapleford.
Can't wait for the next land away, which is next weekend at Earls Colne.
Thanks again for the helpful input, much appreciated.
Return trip was fine as well; we were on runway 03 and the controller gave instructions for a left turnout after takeoff, which was exactly what I needed. Then once at Ashford requested Southend Radar and flew back to Stapleford.
Can't wait for the next land away, which is next weekend at Earls Colne.
Thanks again for the helpful input, much appreciated.
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Great stuff. Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm Rob. It brightens up a miserable day over here of GR, the odd +SHRA and a thoroughly depressing dose of RADZ.
I find that land-aways at new airfields are always a thrill. It never goes away. Hope it is the same for you.
I find that land-aways at new airfields are always a thrill. It never goes away. Hope it is the same for you.