peterh337

The "non-aviation" proposal is quite funny in a way. The Socata owners group at socata.org had that for some time and (to cut a long story short) a lot of people got fed up with the moderation there and broke off and set up their own "TB Lounge" which was by invitation only. I think it is still running, but there was almost no aviation discussion in it.

I don't know whether Americans are more sensitive to "religious stuff" but I have found some US forums automatically delete any post containing the sequence of letters H E L L. So if you (innocently) write "hellishly", your post disappears, and it can take a while to discover why

In the Socata group one had people posting stuff like Jewish jokes and some people got incredibly hot under the collar about it.

Now, all that stuff is gone and they have two forums for "jokes"; both are moderated (by an ex Brit who owns the whole site) but one is more "liberal" and to gain access you have to sign a form in which you confirm that you accept you may be offended. I've never been there; the internet is full of that stuff, if you don't have a life.

I got booted out of socata.org several years ago for upsetting several Americans, plus one Brit C182 owner , but I still read it and it is sad how it has gone totally downhill. Not the non-aviation content (for which I care little; the internet is packed with fora on which one can let off steam if one needs that for his life to be "complete" and I don't post in either Jet Blast nor in the Flyer non-av forum) but the aviation content which is now little more than totally banal sycophantic posts. The European pilots (who probably number 50% of TB sales) mostly disappeared from the site as it got taken over by a bunch of bible carrying Americans with zero SOH who for the most part can barely write more than 3 lines, none of which will carry any useful information.

So there is a tie between heavy non-aviation content moderation, and killing off aviation discussions.

I think Flyer needs to be more careful than p p r u n e about moderation because it owns a printed magazine whose publisher is an obvious target for litigation, whereas p p r u n e has the "due diligence" defence of offering to delete stuff which somebody objects to and submits evidence of it being false. And anyway it is rather hard to libel somebody who is not using their real name... Plus a printed mag has to be aspirational / positive which does not go well with a forum where e.g. products are slagged off.

I think that a successful aviation forum needs to be like Usenet was i.e. anonymous and very lightly moderated. Usenet was great in that you could killfile people in the client software, so obvious idiots' posts were not visible (to you) after that. One could also mod to the extent of deleting posts / banning posters who do nasty personal attacks.

I think that - apart from certain mods on this site having apparently weird agendas, and I am not talking about the PF forum - this site gets it largely right.

But I think forums as a whole are on the decline, because they have been around about 10-15 years now and are in decline across the board. Most people with useful stuff to say have said it and moved on. With "society" moving to Iphone-posted banal one-liner messages for everything, I don't see things getting better.

Dawdler

Peter's illustration of "automatic" moderation was alive and well on the Sky Formula one forum (now defunct). There it was taken to the extreme. for example a perfectly acceptable word like "analysis" was modded out because of the first four letters. Some systems of moderation "suck" (but I'm forgetting myself, that word wouldn't have got through either)!

Genghis the Engineer

I once got this very badly wrong when I was in the middle of a robust conversation with a colleague who worked for a large organisation. The colleague was an old friend, so I felt it appropriate to email him saying that something he'd done had "really f*****d me up" - sometimes you do that when you know somebody well. Unfortunately it turns out that certain words got emails in that organisation automatically get re-routed to the intended recipient's line manager.

He nearly got sacked, and our friendship was severely dented. Not nice.

G

wsmempson

A couple of years ago, an email sent to a friend of mine who worked at a swiss bank, was bounced for use of unacceptable language, and could have got my chum into trouble - however the key word which caused all the trouble was contained within a line where I recounted that a the son of an ex-colleague had just graduated "summa cum laude".

Not for nothing are computers known as 'idiot savant'.

stiknruda

Years ago I was helping out in a VERY large organisation - a colleague had been tasked to work out why the population of a large area of Lincolnshire had totally failed to respond to an attractive mail-shot offer that the rest of the Great Britain were clamouring to accept.

It took him a few days to pinpoint it: the profanity-checker on the centralised print server farm had deleted all letters to:

Scunthorpe

robin

I see the LAA loyalists have dived in to maintain the status quo and ensuring the kit-builders win out.

Sad....

mary meagher

How could a thread on the Light Aircraft Association forum be so amusing and apropos? My late night entertainment before turning in is to look something up on PPRuNe and join in when inspired....heard about PP from the newspapers, back when Capt. Sullenberger, who was formerly a gliding instructor, made a good arrival after cooking a pair of Canada Geese in his turbines....

But being a bird of ancient and decaying brain, new to the internet, pressed the wrong button and displayed my true identity by mistake instead of the handsome pseudenom I had contrived.....o well. Only once or twice, when flamed or insulted, did I wish I had some way to hide. And even though I would like to be rude to some people, you have to think twice before pressing the send button, which is good discipline anyhow.

PP is great value and good fun, and talks about flying, which is what I really care about. If there were anywhere near as good a site about gliding I would go there as well....

Preview Post is my motto....

stickandrudderman

To be fair there was a few posters who tried to be supportive but yes, the LAA forum has returned to its slumber with the status quo returned.

I have written to a board member who has promised to take the matter up with the board in May, so let's see if they have anything intelligent and constuctive to say about the matter.

patowalker

Are you suggesting that supporting your proposal is the only intelligent and constructive outcome?

stickandrudderman

If you are serious then that is not an intelligent post and indicative of the kind of response that I've come to expect from the LAA forum.
I am suggesting that it would be nice to have an intelligent dialogue with someone in authority in order that both parties can come to a position of understanding, if not agreement.

If, on the other hand, you are attempting to be sarcastic:

patowalker

Well, I never claimed to be intelligent. But you must have known that, because I post on the LAA forum under my own name.

wsmempson

AS I understand things, the LAA now has, as part of it's remit, the duties of a national regulatory body, as it has taken on the task of certifying several classes of aircraft.

Surely it is now obliged to operate in a businesslike, meritocratic and transparent fashion, as opposed to functioning like a private members club? I'm pretty sure that in this role there is a degree of central government oversight required in order to make sure that members and their aircraft aren't subject to some sort of mysterious 'black-ball' on the grounds that the membership commitee simply don't like them?

robin

Spot on.

The LAA Board can remove membership from anyone if, after investigation, they deem them to have acted contrary to the standards of the Association. There is no appeal. Given that membership is a requirement for a Permit, this could cause problems for an owner, though there have been special arrangements when this has happened in the past.

But your point is well made. A regulatory authority cannot continue to act as a private members association can. They have to develop a thicker skin.
Personally, I feel that the LAA will eventually split into 2 parts - the regulatory arm and a reborn PFA looking after the other 'fun' aspects.

Dawdler

There is no doubt that the PFA and latterly the LAA have given a great deal of support to those building a kit plane. This is as it should be as they are responsible for issuing a permit to fly for that very aircraft. That said the terms Popular Flying Association and Light Aircraft Assocition, would suggest that the organisation is more encompassing than being just for kit builders. Perhaps as the previous poster has suggested the regulatory arm should be (partially) divorced from the more social side of the organisation.

It does beg the question whether the LAA is really a light aircraft association or one to promote and regulate kit building of aircraft. One wonders how an aircraft owner whose plane is now no longer eligible for a CofA will be recieved within the arms of the organisation. Perhaps it all works well and is fine and dandy, but it does seem that the non-conformist might be up against it a little. But this may also be the case in many organisations. The non-conformist, as suggested bythe term, tends not to conform and this may make the officers uncomfortable. Suggestions that he/she may make may not be to the taste of those in charge and therefore may be resisted.

Genghis the Engineer

I've had good sight of LAA's support of a vintage aeroplane transferred onto a PtF (and its owner), and I can't fault it.

On the other hand as an LAA owner with a Private CofA aeroplane, and the support I've had over problems with that were pretty minimal.


By comparison, the BMAA (which I'm also a member of, and generally prefer if I want to achieve something) provides promotion and support for all microlight aeroplanes - even if they are administered by the LAA. An attitude I find very wholesome.

G

peterh337

I don't know the answer to this, but how does all this work in the USA?

Being N-reg, I use US pilot forums for pointers on specific technical issues, and I don't detect this "them and us" division out there. I get the US Flying and US AOPA magazines (the first I pay for and the second I get by paying the US AOPA membership) and again they seem to cover the whole spectrum.

ISTM that US AOPA is an effective well organised lobbying organisation for the whole lot.

It has often been said that the same cannot be done here because US AOPA gets 10x more money than UK AOPA and can thus employ professional people - and indeed this is self evident when comparing the individuals in question. I've seen Phil Boyer give a very simple presentation after which the Eurocontrol and EASA chaps in the front row slinked away before anybody could ask them to stand up and answer difficult questions. The rather more local rep was enjoying a little post-lunch doze.

But that cannot be the whole story because if you put together the various bodies here (AOPA, BGA, LAA, BMAA, whatever else?) there should be enough money to get it set up properly?

The old joke is that if you put 4 UK pilots on an island, and leave them for a year, you will end up with four associations, two splinter groups, and four pilot forums each with twenty members all using nicknames And I think this is true.

Or is it that far too many people in the GA scene here are desperately trying to hang in there, on an inadequate budget, and thus end up bickering the whole time? The VFR community would happily sell its "IFR grandmother" just to get 5p off the next landing fee, etc.

Peter Gristwood

Quite - and that was the main reason I gave up on the LAA. The magazine, though well produced, is very much a home-builder's newsletter.

They have some very professional and dedicated people, but I've always felt that they have missed a trick by not being more welcoming to members of the CofA fleet. I had hopes when the LAA was formed, but ......

Genghis the Engineer

I must admit I never saw LAA as anything other than a name change; I've not detected any real cultural or organisational shift. And to be fair, I don't recall being asked as a member to support anything more than a name change.

G

patowalker

Funny you should say that: there are some who claim you encouraged them to move from the BMAA to the PFA.

Genghis the Engineer

That was entirely personal.

G