A question for Instructors and experienced PPL's
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A question for Instructors and experienced PPL's
I'm 17hrs into my PPL training and my financial situation has taken a "dip". So much so that there is now a growing gap between each lesson which is leading to a lack of continuity. The Irish weather has often delayed my ambition but financial reasons are now my biggest stumbling block. My instructor blames (and I agree) the long gaps between my recent lessons as a barrier to going solo. These are now stretching to 4 weeks. My question is simple...should I stop and wait until my financial situation improves or should I continue and fly the occasional lesson for the fun of it? Personally, I would opt for the latter as I love every minute of it and I'm under no pressure to gain my license. However I'm a bit concerned that my training school would consider me a "second class" student due to my lack of progress. It's all a bit depressing as I hadn't envisaged this situation when I set out on my training last year.
Any tips from "the wise" would be greatly appreciated. PC based Flight Simulator is no replacement for the real thing no matter how good the recent add-ons are (and some are really good)
Any tips from "the wise" would be greatly appreciated. PC based Flight Simulator is no replacement for the real thing no matter how good the recent add-ons are (and some are really good)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: S Warwickshire
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It sounds like you've answered your own question. If you enjoy it, keep going. It will be slow, but you will progress.
As an alternative, if you have more time than cash, then try a gliding club, especially if there's a cheap winch launch for the early stages. The skills you gain will pay you back when you return to powered flying.
Motorglider training is often cheaper than regular powered and just as good for learning the skills (some would say more so).
As an alternative, if you have more time than cash, then try a gliding club, especially if there's a cheap winch launch for the early stages. The skills you gain will pay you back when you return to powered flying.
Motorglider training is often cheaper than regular powered and just as good for learning the skills (some would say more so).
I think that you need to look to the long term. Assuming that you are able to pass your PPL eventually - what sort of real fun are you going to get out of your flying post qualification?
It sounds to me that you really want to look for cheaper ways to learn, and then to fly. Have a look at the costs and possibilities at your local gliding and microlight clubs, for example.
G
It sounds to me that you really want to look for cheaper ways to learn, and then to fly. Have a look at the costs and possibilities at your local gliding and microlight clubs, for example.
G
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training alternatives.
Hi AOB9,
I think you should also consider changing to three-axis microlighting. These aircraft are often much better than the Group A variety, that I assume you are flying now, and are significantly cheaper to fly.
Another alternative is to stop flying for the time being but set up a 'flying fund' to save money over a period and then go to the States for a concentrated course in a couple of years time.
BroomstickPilot
I think you should also consider changing to three-axis microlighting. These aircraft are often much better than the Group A variety, that I assume you are flying now, and are significantly cheaper to fly.
Another alternative is to stop flying for the time being but set up a 'flying fund' to save money over a period and then go to the States for a concentrated course in a couple of years time.
BroomstickPilot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would recommend the saving up and battering it to death approach as well. There are guys at my club who started well before me who still haven't got their PPL. No reflection on them, they are perfectly capable, they just don't fly frequently.
Conversely it took me about 9 months without really straining to do my PPL, Night and IMC. I must stress I'm no superman when it comes to flying, I just had the money saved up and also could fly more or less anytime, plus I didn't have to think about money if the weather was going to be CAVOK for a week and you have chance to put ten or so hours in.
The more often you do something the quicker you learn it. You need to think about flying afterwards as well, the money pit doesn't stop when you have your license...
I came to powered after 20 odd years of gliding, purely because I could only afford to glide and I didn't want to do the 'dribs and drabs' approach to getting a PPL. That doesn't mean that gliding is second best, far from it, most glider pilots would say it requires far superior piloting skills. It's a superb sport that has without any doubt at all made me a better powered pilot.
Good luck anyway and above all be it microlighting, gliding or Class A, enjoy it!
Edit: Just realised your post was aimed at instructors and experienced pilots, apologies for butting in!
Conversely it took me about 9 months without really straining to do my PPL, Night and IMC. I must stress I'm no superman when it comes to flying, I just had the money saved up and also could fly more or less anytime, plus I didn't have to think about money if the weather was going to be CAVOK for a week and you have chance to put ten or so hours in.
The more often you do something the quicker you learn it. You need to think about flying afterwards as well, the money pit doesn't stop when you have your license...
I came to powered after 20 odd years of gliding, purely because I could only afford to glide and I didn't want to do the 'dribs and drabs' approach to getting a PPL. That doesn't mean that gliding is second best, far from it, most glider pilots would say it requires far superior piloting skills. It's a superb sport that has without any doubt at all made me a better powered pilot.
Good luck anyway and above all be it microlighting, gliding or Class A, enjoy it!
Edit: Just realised your post was aimed at instructors and experienced pilots, apologies for butting in!
Last edited by thing; 14th Mar 2012 at 09:17.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It sounds to me that you really want to look for cheaper ways to learn, and then to fly. Have a look at the costs and possibilities at your local gliding and microlight clubs, for example.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree. Go back and ask yourself what your motivation really is.
There are far cheaper ways to fly than a PPL on your average spamcan. They can be just as much fun, but equally there are some limits (long-distance touring is generally a bit harder to do, for instance).
On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing what you're doing now. As long as you are open and upfront with your instructor about your situation (not enough money to continue at a reasonable pace, not necessarily interested in going solo quickly, but just wanting to have fun).
There are far cheaper ways to fly than a PPL on your average spamcan. They can be just as much fun, but equally there are some limits (long-distance touring is generally a bit harder to do, for instance).
On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing what you're doing now. As long as you are open and upfront with your instructor about your situation (not enough money to continue at a reasonable pace, not necessarily interested in going solo quickly, but just wanting to have fun).
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd definitely look at the microlight route.
Whether or not you stop for a while to build up funds or keep going in dribs and drabs is likely to be a choice only you can make - depends on how you feel about flying, what your motivation is and so on. For what its worth, no decent school or instructor will treat you as a "second class" citizen just because you fly infrequently. Sure it will take more hours to get your PPL, but if you're enjoying the flying and the learning, that may not matter to you. I have students in just your position - and over time they make very good and safe pilots.
G is right though - if finances are a challenge at the moment, you need to think about what your goals are going to be after you gain your licence and make sure you can continue to fly.
H
Whether or not you stop for a while to build up funds or keep going in dribs and drabs is likely to be a choice only you can make - depends on how you feel about flying, what your motivation is and so on. For what its worth, no decent school or instructor will treat you as a "second class" citizen just because you fly infrequently. Sure it will take more hours to get your PPL, but if you're enjoying the flying and the learning, that may not matter to you. I have students in just your position - and over time they make very good and safe pilots.
G is right though - if finances are a challenge at the moment, you need to think about what your goals are going to be after you gain your licence and make sure you can continue to fly.
H
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harsh as this will sound, whilst you feel you are at best, treading water, what you're actually doing is going backwards and if you're in the circuit, you're becoming institutionalised to the circuit which will cause problems when you leave.
As an instructor for over 4yrs, my advice (as I've seen this again & again) is to break-off until the funds are there.
What you're doing is really just a series of trial lessons for someone who can just about circuit the aircraft.
Its one of the worst places to stall in your progress ( only nav is more expensive).
It doesn't take much, if you're in the circuit, I'd budget getting yourself solo again in around 5-10hrs. Sounds a lot, but since you've stopped your regular flying, how many have you already knocked up without progress? Going solo is about reaching a peak, getting pushed of the edge (the instructor saying " ok, make this one a land, I'm getting out!!) and then consolidation afterwards.
As such, your flying needs to ramp UP, not just bounce along
Bb
As an instructor for over 4yrs, my advice (as I've seen this again & again) is to break-off until the funds are there.
What you're doing is really just a series of trial lessons for someone who can just about circuit the aircraft.
Its one of the worst places to stall in your progress ( only nav is more expensive).
It doesn't take much, if you're in the circuit, I'd budget getting yourself solo again in around 5-10hrs. Sounds a lot, but since you've stopped your regular flying, how many have you already knocked up without progress? Going solo is about reaching a peak, getting pushed of the edge (the instructor saying " ok, make this one a land, I'm getting out!!) and then consolidation afterwards.
As such, your flying needs to ramp UP, not just bounce along
Bb
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with budda
and also have a good think about whats going wrong in the circuit. Is it just the flare your making a pigs ear of or are you maxed out the whole way around.
If its just the flare continue just doing circuits.
If its the whole thing go and practise the previous exercises until your good at doing everything in the circuit apart from the landing.
and also have a good think about whats going wrong in the circuit. Is it just the flare your making a pigs ear of or are you maxed out the whole way around.
If its just the flare continue just doing circuits.
If its the whole thing go and practise the previous exercises until your good at doing everything in the circuit apart from the landing.
Last edited by mad_jock; 14th Mar 2012 at 11:53.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AOB9 - in 1995, I was exactly like you. Stuck in the circuit, infrequent flying, 16 hours and going nowhere. A problem.
All of the above is good and wise words. I always reckoned that there are four things that prevent anyone from progress in flying
1.Weather
2. Availability of instructor/aeroplane at a time that suits your schedule.
3.Finance
4.Will
As stated above there is always an answer, you have just got to find it. My view is you will go nowhere if you continue ad hoc, so, if budget is the main concern, look at Micro/Ultra/Gliding. If budget can be overcome, save up for a block, to get over the stages. Hang around the flying club, get to know people, and go flying with them. Befriend a lonely pilot!!!
You can do nothing about weather at this stage. The other three are do-able.
All of the above is good and wise words. I always reckoned that there are four things that prevent anyone from progress in flying
1.Weather
2. Availability of instructor/aeroplane at a time that suits your schedule.
3.Finance
4.Will
As stated above there is always an answer, you have just got to find it. My view is you will go nowhere if you continue ad hoc, so, if budget is the main concern, look at Micro/Ultra/Gliding. If budget can be overcome, save up for a block, to get over the stages. Hang around the flying club, get to know people, and go flying with them. Befriend a lonely pilot!!!
You can do nothing about weather at this stage. The other three are do-able.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Suffolk
Age: 70
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I gave up flying when I could no longer fly enough to consider myself safe. Managing to make the minimum hours with insufficient funds was stressful and removed the fun.
When Northern Rock crashed, I decided to take out my money and get my licence back. That took a few hours refresher and then a skills test - all done in a week between contracts. I then got a share in an LAA aircraft and fly at an affordable cost.
I'd put training on hold until you have the funds - in the meantime, keep your hand in by taking up the offers of spare seats on the top of this forum.
When Northern Rock crashed, I decided to take out my money and get my licence back. That took a few hours refresher and then a skills test - all done in a week between contracts. I then got a share in an LAA aircraft and fly at an affordable cost.
I'd put training on hold until you have the funds - in the meantime, keep your hand in by taking up the offers of spare seats on the top of this forum.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EGBT
Age: 51
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I second all of the comments above regarding gliding and 3-axis micro-lighting. I fly many different GA types and am studying my ATPL Groundschool while working full time but I still fly Eurostars when able even though the hours count for nothing on my licence - they're just so much fun and so more capable VFR than a Cessna or whatever most people learn on these days.except perhaps the new Tecnam my club has just taken delivery of!
Also, ask you instructor to introduce you to people he thinks you wouldn't learn bad habits from if you went flying with. Maybe they'll let you do the RT and nav as well as being good for the to talk you through what they're doing.
Also, ask you instructor to introduce you to people he thinks you wouldn't learn bad habits from if you went flying with. Maybe they'll let you do the RT and nav as well as being good for the to talk you through what they're doing.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't really give you advice on whether you should pause till funds allow or continue a limited training schedule, however when i was getting my private back in the early 90's in the US I had the same problem with funds. One of the things i did was to become what they called a "hanger rat" which basically involved hanging round the airfield every weekend and getting to know the aircraft owners and licensed pilots who rented and making them aware that i was available to go right seat for flights and to act as a second pair of eyes. I also asked the aircraft owners and the flight school to let me know if there was any "maintenance flights" where aircraft were being re-positioned to other fields for repairs and I would end up splitting the cab fare back with the pilot/CFI. Browsing through my logbook these flights accounted for some of the best flying experiences I've had. They included going both right and left seat with a CFI delivering a Warrior to a new owner from Los Angeles to New York over 3 days, taking a C210 from San Diego to Oklahoma for a new paint job, and an Beach Barron (left seat!!) to Arizona for a avionics upgrade. In addition to these flights I probably got about 80 hours of local re-positioning flights. A lot of the aircraft brokers would hire CFI's from flight schools to do the deliveries and the CFI's were only to happy to have someone else there for company, share a lunch stop, or a beer on a delivery that required an overnight in some god forsaken place. Obviously some of it could not be logged, but a lot of it could and it was a very educational experience. I was always amazed at how many, dare i say, mature and perhaps rusty pilots/owners wanted to take their aircraft (that were not your usual flight school types, but 182, Cherokee 6 complex types etc) for a flight but felt more comfortable with another "aviator" (and not there wife) in the right seat. Off course this is in no way a substitute for a proper PPL training program but it keeps your hand in the game when paying full freight for rental + lessons is not an option.
Oh and i would add one more thing. Another benefit of this was you really got to know about different aircraft makes,model and equipment etc, as a large percentage of CFI's are right lazy bastards and on those cold morning starts they would stay in the pilot lounge "checking the weather" while I was sent to do the preflight etc.
Oh and i would add one more thing. Another benefit of this was you really got to know about different aircraft makes,model and equipment etc, as a large percentage of CFI's are right lazy bastards and on those cold morning starts they would stay in the pilot lounge "checking the weather" while I was sent to do the preflight etc.
Last edited by piperboy84; 14th Mar 2012 at 13:27.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you all for your replies, I didn't expect this much feedback. A curious thing happened today. A guy at the flight club (PPL) rang me to discuss a work issue ( we're both self employed). During the conversation he asked how my lessons were going and I told him exactly what I told you here. His reply was sympathetic as he has just sold his PA-28 as he can no longer afford the annual costs associated with it. BUT, he also owns a microlight. Having heard of some of the feedback received here he went on to offer me a flight to give me a taste of "true stick and rudder", his words. This is going to be an interesting and unexpected diversion and I would have been reluctant to try it out if it hadn't been for the advice received here, so thank you.
Thank you all for your replies, I didn't expect this much feedback. A curious thing happened today. A guy at the flight club (PPL) rang me to discuss a work issue ( we're both self employed). During the conversation he asked how my lessons were going and I told him exactly what I told you here. His reply was sympathetic as he has just sold his PA-28 as he can no longer afford the annual costs associated with it. BUT, he also owns a microlight. Having heard of some of the feedback received here he went on to offer me a flight to give me a taste of "true stick and rudder", his words. This is going to be an interesting and unexpected diversion and I would have been reluctant to try it out if it hadn't been for the advice received here, so thank you.
I think that in many ways your friend is correct - to my mind I fly a microlight, whilst I would operate a PA28. For the fun of flying on a nice day, I'll take the microlight any day.
Why do I choose to fly SEP then? Because I can go further, with more payload, and in cloud and at night. But if I want to fly for fun, I'll take a microlight pretty much every time.
G
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was advised to save up and do a big chunk together, and I did that inadvertently. I've posted in another thread the reason why I took a year off lessons while I was pre-solo. In that year's break I saved some money up.
Ultimately it took me just over two years and around 12 1/2 hours to go solo, and the full PPL took 4 years and 46 hours, but I wouldn't recommend it as the way to do things. Save up some money, do it with as much continuity as you can manage. But don't worry if if takes you longer than you wanted to.
Don't fret about how many hours it takes, within reason. A ticket is a ticket. The only time to worry is if you're spending money unnecessarily. In which case make sure that you get the most from every minute you spend in the aeroplane.
The glider / microlight suggestion is well worth investigating, as are "stickandrudder" skills. These can open the way to flying that costs considerably less, and are even more fun.
Ultimately it took me just over two years and around 12 1/2 hours to go solo, and the full PPL took 4 years and 46 hours, but I wouldn't recommend it as the way to do things. Save up some money, do it with as much continuity as you can manage. But don't worry if if takes you longer than you wanted to.
Don't fret about how many hours it takes, within reason. A ticket is a ticket. The only time to worry is if you're spending money unnecessarily. In which case make sure that you get the most from every minute you spend in the aeroplane.
The glider / microlight suggestion is well worth investigating, as are "stickandrudder" skills. These can open the way to flying that costs considerably less, and are even more fun.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Suffolk
Age: 70
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally, I wouldn't recommend gliding. It's very expensive and you can spend a whole day at an airfield for ten minutes flying. As an example of cost, the London Gliding Club charges £640 for annual membership and an aero tow to 2000' plus an hours flying cost around £65. Gliding's great and I used to spend my weekends doing it in the 70s - but prices have gone up a lot since then.
Microlighting yes - I've had a couple of flights in flexiwings and looked over a couple of the three axis acft. Both types are fun to fly and I like the grass roots feel of the sport. In contrast gliding these days seems a bit snobby to me.
Microlighting yes - I've had a couple of flights in flexiwings and looked over a couple of the three axis acft. Both types are fun to fly and I like the grass roots feel of the sport. In contrast gliding these days seems a bit snobby to me.