mountain rating
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I don't know about an actual rating, but I can tell you from experience that it is vital for flat land pilots to have appropriate training before flying in the mountains. I'm certain there would be organzations in the Alps who would do this, there certainly are in western Canada.
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There is a thread on the subject here: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...in-flying.html
It's a few years old now but those individuals might be able to give you some info.
It's a few years old now but those individuals might be able to give you some info.
As Pilot DAR says, there are many FTOs in Western Canada, all the way from Calgary to Vancouver Island, that offer "mountain checkouts" - there is no actual rating.
I can recommend doing one of these checkouts. Western Canada is easy to get to, the flying will be much cheaper than in the UK and of course, there is no language problem.
For mountain flying somewhat further away, see this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...w-zealand.html
I can recommend doing one of these checkouts. Western Canada is easy to get to, the flying will be much cheaper than in the UK and of course, there is no language problem.
For mountain flying somewhat further away, see this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...w-zealand.html
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This report:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-re...7/a06p0087.pdf
Gives some basics of how things can go really wrong with mountain flying - even after training. The report contains errors, even after being reissued to correct several errors, but generally is an excellent introduction to the perils of mountain flying.
I know a whole lot about this particular accident, and did some mountain flying after that crash, with a lot in my mind about mountain flying safety, the whole time! It is not to be taken likely!
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-re...7/a06p0087.pdf
Gives some basics of how things can go really wrong with mountain flying - even after training. The report contains errors, even after being reissued to correct several errors, but generally is an excellent introduction to the perils of mountain flying.
I know a whole lot about this particular accident, and did some mountain flying after that crash, with a lot in my mind about mountain flying safety, the whole time! It is not to be taken likely!
Very interesting report about a tragic accident. The NZ Mountain Flying PDF mentioned in the TSB report can be downloaded via the link in my previous post. Well worth reading if you fly near any hills.
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The mountain rating is a very "national" subject. The Swiss one only allows you to land on (Swiss) glaciers - and requires a minimum of 250 (!) landings on ten different sites over two years (so you face a full variety of conditions).
Mountain flying (sans landing) is part of the Swiss PPL training curriculum though.
The French MOU rating (like the Swiss one) is only valid in France - but there is a vastly higher number of surfaces you can land on.
Mountain flying (sans landing) is part of the Swiss PPL training curriculum though.
The French MOU rating (like the Swiss one) is only valid in France - but there is a vastly higher number of surfaces you can land on.
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Mountain Flying
The best book on flying in the mountains is "Flying the Mountains" by Fletcher Anderson (McGraw-Hill). The wisdom and experience of the author did not save him when he broke one of his own cardinal rules flying low along Snake River Canyon in Wyoming on 18th November 2005. This is a must read for anyone who wants to fly over and around mountain ranges, but it does not cover the European angle of landing on short mountain strips.
The best place to learn the European mountain landing techniques has to be Megeve Aero Club, flying the Jodels. It is rigorous, expensive and very French - you do things their way (like point and power) - with no concessions to the modern information age (like a website). But it is the one active and competent mountain flying club in Europe with access to a just sufficient number of altiports and rough mountain strips - where the best pilots go to get the qualification and instruct, and the rest of us tag along and try to learn. For the average pilot allow at least 20 hours over at least two weeks to be ready to take the mountain rating practical exam on wheels. Flying on skis onto glaciers then follows.
Forget trying to take the rating in Italy and Switzerland is much more restricted. The French rating is generally recognised in Europe (but not the other way round) and anyway most of the landing opportunities are in France. However EASA is now trying to formalise a European mountain rating which will doubtless make a restricted and declining aspect of private aviation even more difficult to pursue. Get there while you can.
The European Mountain Pilots Association was founded at Clacton in 1990, which shows that some Euro organisations do have a sense of humour. But much talk and not much action. The French organisation - see AFPM L'aviation sportive de montagne EMP - is active in its own way - and does good work in trying to keep strips open - but demonstrates why it is the French who gave us the word "clique". The Italians have two mountain flying organisations but only one (officially closed) strip - but - "bella figura" - it is the most spectacular grass strip in the Alps. Hans Fuchs in Switzerland at www.gletscherflug.ch shows what can be done - if you have years of experience, a hard to get Swiss rating, a Supercub and regular access to the most spectacular scenery in Europe. Dream on !
The best place to learn the European mountain landing techniques has to be Megeve Aero Club, flying the Jodels. It is rigorous, expensive and very French - you do things their way (like point and power) - with no concessions to the modern information age (like a website). But it is the one active and competent mountain flying club in Europe with access to a just sufficient number of altiports and rough mountain strips - where the best pilots go to get the qualification and instruct, and the rest of us tag along and try to learn. For the average pilot allow at least 20 hours over at least two weeks to be ready to take the mountain rating practical exam on wheels. Flying on skis onto glaciers then follows.
Forget trying to take the rating in Italy and Switzerland is much more restricted. The French rating is generally recognised in Europe (but not the other way round) and anyway most of the landing opportunities are in France. However EASA is now trying to formalise a European mountain rating which will doubtless make a restricted and declining aspect of private aviation even more difficult to pursue. Get there while you can.
The European Mountain Pilots Association was founded at Clacton in 1990, which shows that some Euro organisations do have a sense of humour. But much talk and not much action. The French organisation - see AFPM L'aviation sportive de montagne EMP - is active in its own way - and does good work in trying to keep strips open - but demonstrates why it is the French who gave us the word "clique". The Italians have two mountain flying organisations but only one (officially closed) strip - but - "bella figura" - it is the most spectacular grass strip in the Alps. Hans Fuchs in Switzerland at www.gletscherflug.ch shows what can be done - if you have years of experience, a hard to get Swiss rating, a Supercub and regular access to the most spectacular scenery in Europe. Dream on !
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The Swiss one only allows you to land on (Swiss) glaciers - and requires a minimum of 250 (!) landings on ten different sites over two years (so you face a full variety of conditions).
I did 40 ski landings in 4 locations in one day!
(touch and goes with very tight circuits and no circuit traffic make this not only emminently possible but superb fun!)
The mountain rating is a very "national" subject
The EASA Aircrew Regulation, which becomes law in a few weeks, introduces a pan-European mountain rating. Thereafter, all national ratings will be phased out except, perhaps, where they are used on Annex II aircraft.
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Not for long.
The EASA Aircrew Regulation, which becomes law in a few weeks, introduces a pan-European mountain rating. Thereafter, all national ratings will be phased out except, perhaps, where they are used on Annex II aircraft.
The EASA Aircrew Regulation, which becomes law in a few weeks, introduces a pan-European mountain rating. Thereafter, all national ratings will be phased out except, perhaps, where they are used on Annex II aircraft.
Will individual altiport [sic] clearances disappear?
FCL.815 Mountain rating
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a mountain rating are to conduct flights with aeroplanes or TMG to and from surfaces designated as requiring such a rating by the appropriate authorities designated by the Member States.
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a mountain rating are to conduct flights with aeroplanes or TMG to and from surfaces designated as requiring such a rating by the appropriate authorities designated by the Member States.
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Teaching & Gaining the Mountain Rating in the UK
So do we know if there are any landing areas in the United Kingdom that fall under this new classification? I have been studying CAP804, our new LASORS, and have read FCL. 815.
It seems remote that the Mountain Rating would be of use to a PPL holder in the UK and equally, it would be difficult for an instructor to teach it if certain criteria cannot be met, for example..
"6 landings on at least 2 different surfaces designated as requiring a
mountain rating other than the surface of departure".
Is the CAA going to reclassify these places that we could/could not land on without a rating. I personally don't know of any. And in terms of course content to gain the rating, it seems a little vague.
Cheers
It seems remote that the Mountain Rating would be of use to a PPL holder in the UK and equally, it would be difficult for an instructor to teach it if certain criteria cannot be met, for example..
"6 landings on at least 2 different surfaces designated as requiring a
mountain rating other than the surface of departure".
Is the CAA going to reclassify these places that we could/could not land on without a rating. I personally don't know of any. And in terms of course content to gain the rating, it seems a little vague.
Cheers
Last edited by PD210; 20th May 2012 at 21:59. Reason: Spell check
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Interesting
Interesting report. I had only presumed that mountain flying was risky due to the mountain micro climates. Hadn't even thought about the illusions that could come into play.
When flying around Las Vegas I had often wondered about the heli pilots in the canyon and what they would be subject to. I guessed they happened to fly that route several times a day and just knew it backwards.
When flying around Las Vegas I had often wondered about the heli pilots in the canyon and what they would be subject to. I guessed they happened to fly that route several times a day and just knew it backwards.
Unbelievable. Glad to have the freedom to fly Nevada, Idaho and Alaska without costly bureaucratic issues. 
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..and another thing!
According to FCL.815
(c) Skill test. After the completion of the training, the applicant shall pass a skill test with an FE qualified for this purpose.
And is there actually one of these examiners in the UK? At the moment, it seems that if a UK instructor wants to teach the Mountain Rating, they will have to go to somewhere like the Alps, do the course and then the course to teach it and be examined by an appropriate FI (E).
I may be harping on a bit about it but I believe that there are probably a few pilots keen to do this rating in the UK, particularly in terrain such as the Highlands, but will be prevented from doing so because there simply may not be the knowledge and infrastructure in place to do it here. As we know, pilots like adding ratings to their license so it would seem a shame that this rating won't take place, thus not improving one's fly ability in harsh landscapes.
According to FCL.815
(c) Skill test. After the completion of the training, the applicant shall pass a skill test with an FE qualified for this purpose.
And is there actually one of these examiners in the UK? At the moment, it seems that if a UK instructor wants to teach the Mountain Rating, they will have to go to somewhere like the Alps, do the course and then the course to teach it and be examined by an appropriate FI (E).
I may be harping on a bit about it but I believe that there are probably a few pilots keen to do this rating in the UK, particularly in terrain such as the Highlands, but will be prevented from doing so because there simply may not be the knowledge and infrastructure in place to do it here. As we know, pilots like adding ratings to their license so it would seem a shame that this rating won't take place, thus not improving one's fly ability in harsh landscapes.
My mountain flying has been Colorado/Utah and Scotland. The two are almost completely different. Sunny slope is less important in Scotland. The Colorado Flight Centre at Grand Junction offers a Mountain and Back Country Flying course. (I've not done it). From the weather I've encountered in that area over many visits, I can't see much practical flying that would be usefull in Scotland. And vice-versa if you did a course in Scotland. Understanding the local weather is one of the most important things.
Taking off at 7600' in a Pa28-161 is no big deal from an 11,000' runway, but you have to watch your AUW and climb rate with regard to where you go. A previous FBO had no objections to me flying into the Gray and Desolation Canyons - but I picked the weather carefully to do so, and only with the Pa28-181.
Taking off at 7600' in a Pa28-161 is no big deal from an 11,000' runway, but you have to watch your AUW and climb rate with regard to where you go. A previous FBO had no objections to me flying into the Gray and Desolation Canyons - but I picked the weather carefully to do so, and only with the Pa28-181.
