Probably a really stupid question
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Any roasting, condemnations or bollockings I get here will be a walk in the park.
Whew, respect!
Any time you feel the need, i.e, for a lesser "roasting, condemnation or bollocking", do feel free to come back and ask something else.
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Scotland
Classic PPrune perfectly reasoned discussion
And even includes this well worn piece of utter bull!!!!e.
I sometimes wonder what makes glider pilots tick.
And even includes this well worn piece of utter bull!!!!e.
I sometimes wonder what makes glider pilots tick.
2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders (except the power pilot usually isn't looking out, in the real world!)
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Ontario, Canada
Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.
What about daylight savings time? This could also make the right of way for "O'Clocks" more complicated....
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Scotland
But if one plane is coming from the continent, and the other from the UK. There is an hour time difference. If they are doing traffic avoidance on local time, this could affect safety, as one might actually be at 12 O'clock!
Joined: May 2011
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From: Glasgow
Could this be a potential time to turn left?
I was on a go-around on runway 13 (must have been 4th solo flight or there abouts) & I believe ATC told me to "Turn left" before I'd completed flying upwind leg, so I did. On crosswind I discovered I was head to head with a helicopter on Finals for 21. Still a fair distance between us, but a bit disconcerting for a newbie.
Options:
I was on a go-around on runway 13 (must have been 4th solo flight or there abouts) & I believe ATC told me to "Turn left" before I'd completed flying upwind leg, so I did. On crosswind I discovered I was head to head with a helicopter on Finals for 21. Still a fair distance between us, but a bit disconcerting for a newbie.
Options:
- Continue crosswind leg, assuming ATC has a plan
- Turn Right and so move outside the circuit / going the wrong way on downwind leg, as per right of way / collision avoidance rules
- Turn left, which would be turning early downwind
- Pull the BRS (sorry - had to add that although I was in a bulldog so not really an option)
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Hampshire
As a glider pilot we were recently discussing which way we prefered to circle in a thermal. 2/3s said the turned left as it was a forehand movement on the stick.
Is this bias towards LH turns a UK trend?
Sometimes in close proximity turning might not be the best option of collision avoidance. (Think 45 degree bank would form an X with the wings) Unlike ships we can move in 3 dimensions.
Is this bias towards LH turns a UK trend?
Sometimes in close proximity turning might not be the best option of collision avoidance. (Think 45 degree bank would form an X with the wings) Unlike ships we can move in 3 dimensions.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Cumulusrider,
I was just thinking the same. I (for info of others) know the textbook/law rules of way. But since I prefer thermalling doing left turns, hmm. Begs a question.
Tried to imagine someone 'just appeared 1 o'clock', probably left turn dive...
What I'd do in fixed wing or heli, hm, another question. Definitely do 'diving' in R22 if I fancy having my main rotor still attached.
I take the other guy's suggestion of 'instinctive turn away from traffic' as based on driving. Well, I learned to drive on 'continent' and never drove a car on the wrong side (UK, SA, OZ), so I should be fine in that respect. But agree with the point made.
Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on. But then, they fly in circles or skimming ridge most of time (excluding wave - big high for regular Joe few thousand feet up and then ATC usually knows, or XC jumps between lift). If jumping between lifts at speed to fly IAS, I hazard a guess that the glider guy will see power gents way earlier.
I was just thinking the same. I (for info of others) know the textbook/law rules of way. But since I prefer thermalling doing left turns, hmm. Begs a question.
Tried to imagine someone 'just appeared 1 o'clock', probably left turn dive...
What I'd do in fixed wing or heli, hm, another question. Definitely do 'diving' in R22 if I fancy having my main rotor still attached.
I take the other guy's suggestion of 'instinctive turn away from traffic' as based on driving. Well, I learned to drive on 'continent' and never drove a car on the wrong side (UK, SA, OZ), so I should be fine in that respect. But agree with the point made.
Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on. But then, they fly in circles or skimming ridge most of time (excluding wave - big high for regular Joe few thousand feet up and then ATC usually knows, or XC jumps between lift). If jumping between lifts at speed to fly IAS, I hazard a guess that the glider guy will see power gents way earlier.
Joined: May 2011
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From: Glasgow
did you establish what had gone wrong and get feedback on the action you took?
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From: Scotland
Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on.
I flew gliders for a time, had a share in a K6E, As such I am well aware of the stealth characteristics of the average glider. Also, most single engine spam cans & bug smashers like my Emeraude have far less field of view than a glider. I just get pissed off by glider pilots assuming that power pilots are blundering on blindly, head down.
Having said that, It didn't help much a couple of years ago as I was about to connect the cable to the CFI & looked up to see a C172 at <1000ft heading straight up the winch line.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: London UK
Now here's a interesting speculation.
Let us suppose for a moment that pilots only see 10% of the traffic, so then there is only a 1% chance that both pilots see each other.
So now most pilots think they are 10x better than average, because 90% of the time they see "the traffic", and evade, but the other aircraft carries on S&L, obviously "not keeping a good lookout like I do".
Most pilots will be too modest to actually say that, (unless they are glider pilots, of course
), they will just think it!
I suspect this is similar to the "logic" that makes 80% of car drivers believe they are better than average.
There is a serious point here. If the typical pilot is mostly seeing traffic without being seen, one could indeed conclude that most traffic is missed.
Let us suppose for a moment that pilots only see 10% of the traffic, so then there is only a 1% chance that both pilots see each other.
So now most pilots think they are 10x better than average, because 90% of the time they see "the traffic", and evade, but the other aircraft carries on S&L, obviously "not keeping a good lookout like I do".
Most pilots will be too modest to actually say that, (unless they are glider pilots, of course
), they will just think it!I suspect this is similar to the "logic" that makes 80% of car drivers believe they are better than average.
There is a serious point here. If the typical pilot is mostly seeing traffic without being seen, one could indeed conclude that most traffic is missed.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Oxford, UK
Crash one, Res Ipse Loquator.....
I see by your profile that you are of a ripe age and live in Scotland, my congratulations. And that you enjoyed a share in a K6 - did you do your X-country in the 6? your 50k, your 300k, your diamond distance? have you flown in competition? Pray don't be so scornful of my assessment of the shortcomings and distractions and downright poor fenstration of the average spam can and its driver; this comes from horrible experience. Not only mine. Put it this way, I am surprised and overjoyed when a spam can makes way for my glider -
I see by your profile that you are of a ripe age and live in Scotland, my congratulations. And that you enjoyed a share in a K6 - did you do your X-country in the 6? your 50k, your 300k, your diamond distance? have you flown in competition? Pray don't be so scornful of my assessment of the shortcomings and distractions and downright poor fenstration of the average spam can and its driver; this comes from horrible experience. Not only mine. Put it this way, I am surprised and overjoyed when a spam can makes way for my glider -
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Glasgow Scotland
Riverrock83, I am assuming that you are referring to the large international airport on the Ayrshire coast. They have a bit of previous here!
Last summer, shortly after I had passed my PPL I was in a C152 cleared join right base for 31 and to report final. I then heard a PA28 being cleared to join left base for 31, and also to report final. I was lit up like a christmas tree - well landing light on - and assumed ATC was in control - the name kinda gives it away - so I continued, still not visual with the 28, and was about to turn and report final, when the pilot of the PA 28 called final. I was a bit lower than him, in a 152, so I'll let you work out the visibility possibilities! Anyway the training kicked in - it is not exacty the situation described by the OP, but similar - I firewalled the engine, and instinctively made a sharp right hand orbit, getting a very good view of the underside of a PA28 in the process!
I will say with 20 20 hindsight, that we were never in any imminent danger of collision, and ATC were probably technically right to do nothing, but I and the other pilot, who is a member of the same club had a chat later, and with the CFI, felt ATC could have done better- it was a bit tight, and as it turned out, we both nearly s*at ourselves!
Last summer, shortly after I had passed my PPL I was in a C152 cleared join right base for 31 and to report final. I then heard a PA28 being cleared to join left base for 31, and also to report final. I was lit up like a christmas tree - well landing light on - and assumed ATC was in control - the name kinda gives it away - so I continued, still not visual with the 28, and was about to turn and report final, when the pilot of the PA 28 called final. I was a bit lower than him, in a 152, so I'll let you work out the visibility possibilities! Anyway the training kicked in - it is not exacty the situation described by the OP, but similar - I firewalled the engine, and instinctively made a sharp right hand orbit, getting a very good view of the underside of a PA28 in the process!
I will say with 20 20 hindsight, that we were never in any imminent danger of collision, and ATC were probably technically right to do nothing, but I and the other pilot, who is a member of the same club had a chat later, and with the CFI, felt ATC could have done better- it was a bit tight, and as it turned out, we both nearly s*at ourselves!
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From: D
Originally Posted by mary meagher
2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders