Permit Single seater

[propellerhead01]

Hello Everyone!

Just after a little advise,

How do you go about hiring a single seater permit aircraft without selling/buying equity shares?

I know there is a legitimate way of doing this, i believe tiger club does it with there turbulents.

Can anyone shed some light on this?? it would be much appreciated

Thanks.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ah well, there's a little known clause in the ANO which is informally referred to as the "Tiger Club" clause - since it seems to have been put there somewhere in the mists of time for their benefit.

In the 2010 ANO it sayeth...

Public transport – special rules for hire of aircraft
262

(1) Subject to the provisions of this article and this Part, an aircraft in flight is deemed to fly for the purpose of public transport for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4 (other than articles 37(2) and 39(2)), if valuable consideration is given or promised for the primary purpose of conferring on a particular person the right to fly the aircraft on that flight.

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to any single-seat aircraft which has a maximum total weight authorised of not more than 910kg otherwise than under a hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement.

So, a non-owned single seat aeroplane under 910kg can be hired out and the law says it's not public transport. So, you can rent out your PtF single seater quite legally, so long as MTOW is below 910kg. Sadly, that prevents me going and hiring a Spitfire, but it does let the Tiger Club hire out their turbulents.


You'll obviously need to get your insurance company onside if you do, as well as satisfy yourself. I'd suggest as a possible way to protect your 6 O'clock adapting the BMAA rules for microlight hire which were negotiated with CAA originally on the back of the Tiger Club Clause.

Is it anything good? - I'm always up for a chance to fly something new and interesting.

G

[propellerhead01]

You sir are a legend!

Thats just what i wanted to hear!
My insurance company are happy to put other pilots on, for the price of an admin fee.

So i can just name my hourly rate, make sure they’re on the insurance, im happy and off they go?

well i guess that depends on your definition of 'good' I have a Taylor monoplane, she ant no spitfire but i think shes ace! good cheap hour builder... Do you fly the tiger turbys ?

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Ah, it's not that simple.

I believe the Tiger Club have to use 'factory built' Turbulents i.e built by Rollasons, in order that this can be done. They also have a 'letter of agreement' or similar from the CAA which is renewable annually listing the aircraft registrations.

ISTR it was when the law changed (1980s?) and the club successfully forced the CAA's hand to allow them to continue using the Turbulents, the RF4D and the Beta which they had at the time.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think it would be worth asking the Tiger Club nicely what their rules are and why - but my guess is that they are basically following a sensible best practice to protect themselves and their insurers.

I've never flown any of the Tiger Club aircraft sadly, but I'm open to discussion about a Taylor Monoplane

(I was however, a decade or so ago sat in all the meetings at CAA where the BMAA got permission for hiring of microlights, which is how I knew this stuff.)

Everything I know makes me believe however that you're in the clear unless anybody can prove otherwise.

G

[propellerhead01]

Well i would interpret the ANO as saying i can rent it out, but i will give the tiger club a buzz when i have a bit of spare time and see what they have to say about things!
I really really dont want to shoot my self in the face.

Chuffer you say they are all Rollasons built but according to there website.....
'A Turbulent doesn’t have a lot of space in it, so we have modified the cockpit of our latest aircraft G-APVZ to accommodate taller pilots, this aircraft joined the fleet at the end of 2007 after completing a rebuild.'

If it had a rebuild does that mean its still a Rollasons?

Do you think this will all change when EASA comes in?

Genghis, more than happy to let people fly it. if i can get away with it!

Thanks for all the help guys!

[SlipSlider]

If it had a rebuild does that mean its still a Rollasons?

Absolutely. For instance if a Piper Cub is subject to a bare frame rebuild, it's still a Piper Cub. In the UK, for sure.

My understanding agrees with Chuffers ie that a single-seater on a PtF but available for hire must be factory manufactured. One of the Tiger Club Turb team aircraft is home-built, and therefore is privately owned and not on the TC hire fleet.

[Genghis the Engineer]

My understanding agrees with Chuffers ie that a single-seater on a PtF but available for hire must be factory manufactured

I'm willing to accept that's the Tiger Club's house rule, but I know of no regulation outside their FOB which mandates this.

G

[propellerhead01]

One of the Tiger Club Turb team aircraft is home-built, and therefore is privately owned and not on the TC hire fleet

I checked ginfo, all four (i think they only have four) of them are owed by the tiger club.

I think i need to give em' a buzz

do you think its worth talking to the CAA, or will that open a can of worms?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that you might sensibly cover your backside by sending a carefully worded letter to GAD (CAA's General Aviation Department, within SRG: Safety Regulation Group) asking for explanation of how, citing the example of the Tiger club, you can rent out a single seat aeroplane on a PtF.

G

[propellerhead01]

OK, ive sent the part 34 of the ANO to a aviation solicitor friend, ill give the tiger club a ring see what happens. iam also drafting a letter to the CAA.
im gunna crack this once and for all!

if anyone has any other information please let me know!

Thanks for all your help

[SlipSlider]

Quote:
One of the Tiger Club Turb team aircraft is home-built, and therefore is privately owned and not on the TC hire fleet

I checked ginfo, all four (i think they only have four) of them are owed by the tiger club.

Have alook at the last display pilot listed here ("the team") and his mount G-BUKH: Turb Team Home

With two exceptions, all the Rollason built Turbs that survive have registrations that end in 'Z - one exception being G-AJCP that bears the initials of it's first owner, at one time President of the (then) PFA.

I've always had a liking for the Turb ever since I first saw G-ARNZ when it was privately owned at Portsmouth airport in 1966/7, fitted with a full canopy. The owner used to lift the tailskid on to his shoulder and wheelbarrow it out of the hangar, like a toy, jump in and putter off to who knows where; marvellous. Maybe one day I'll get to fly 'NZ, that would be neat. Must pop down to Headcorn.

GtE: I wouldn't dispute your position on this; I certainly don't have a source reference to support my understanding. It's an intriguing thought that some brave soul with sufficient entrepreneurial spirit might be able to acquire and hire out half-a-dozen or more VP1s / Luton Minors / Turbs / Taylor Monos / Nippers etc for less than the capital cost of, say, one Ikarus or Eurostar!

[propellerhead01]

Spoke to a helpful chap at the tiger club today.

he said that you can do it, but you will need to start up a 'flying club' which he said was pretty straight forward. and i will need member to member insurance.
i will phone the CAA on Monday and see what they say.

Slipslider; I’m not trying to make any money from this, just want to help a few friends out on the way to there flying career, just trying to find out away of doing it without selling shares in my mono..

So anyone know how to start flying club???
Cant find anything on the CAA website.

[Genghis the Engineer]

So anyone know how to start flying club???
Cant find anything on the CAA website.

Same as any other club really - name, purpose, membership list, one or more officers of the club, rules - that's about it really.

Anything else is just "as required".

G

[mad_jock]

You write Flying Club members at the top of an A4 bit of paper.

Then you list the folk that you want to be in it.

And your club is formed.

[propellerhead01]

You write Flying Club members at the top of an A4 bit of paper.

wow that easy! looks like i got me a flying club then!!!

i thought the CAA would be mad for the paper work, and charge me **** loads like they do with everything else!

S

[robin]

I'd wager it isn't as simple as that.

You'll be looking at increased insurance premiums, a defined level of maintenance (excluding pilot maintenance) etc etc

You are, after all, setting up a rental system and the CAA will bite you if and when there is a problem.

[propellerhead01]

Well, ill give it a go and see what happens,

fwjc- Im really trying to avoid selling shares! i own her and im fond of her so would kinda like to keep it that way!

thanks all for your imput

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't think that selling shares should be necessary, in this case.

G