Pilot In Command
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It is quite common for NPPL pilot owners to take a “full” PPL in the RHS. The NPPL can than fly to the FIR boundary and then allow the full PPL to finish the flight in French airspace. The RHS PPL is on the insurance and qualified to fly the aircraft. Provided both pilots have satisfied themselves that the flight can be conducted safely and agreed what is going to happen I am not aware of any law preventing this. No signatures in the log until after the flight. I am fairly sure that at least one of these flights was ramp checked by the French and all was said to be OK. (I was at the same airfield at the same time this was going on).
What I did not ask at the time was what it said on the flight plan, which had gone “missing” and was the reason for the check in the first place.
Rod1
What I did not ask at the time was what it said on the flight plan, which had gone “missing” and was the reason for the check in the first place.
Rod1
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The way I look at this is:
If you are rated to fly the aeroplane and current on class, then you CAN be PIC at any point during the flight. If you are either not rated or not current then you cannot be PIC at all.
Therefore if pilot A is rated to fly in VMC and is flying the leg and pilot B has an IR but is passenger, then the minute the aeroplane enters the could then A cannot remain PIC but B *can* become PIC (which would be the most prudent course of action)....without any signatures etc. I guess the same applies to an NPPL flying to France, but should be talked about beforehand.
With a non PPL PAX, the same applies. They are not rated to fly the aeroplane so therefore can never be PIC, and pilot A remains PIC (as you have to have a PIC onboard!...in most circumstances!). There are not well defined rules to cover this, only from the viewpoint of logging the time - the pax cannot log anything, therefore Pilot A should log PIC, and it would be reasonable to assume that they are indeed PIC.
It is different for FI's as they will be PIC during a flight but of course then Pilot A cannot also be PIC but can log PUT....unless in the USA where by the FI logs "as flight instructor" and the qualified PPL as PIC.
Don't get too hung up on PIC, just agree beforehand what you are going to do. If Pilot A decides to fly in cloud then they are a prat unless they had previously agreed with pilot B that in those circumstances B would then be in command.
I've flown with non IR'd pilots that way and (depending who they are) am happy to monitor the flight from the RHS while they make could breaks, but with the understanding that if they start to get out of shape, I'll take control.
What was the original question?!
If you are rated to fly the aeroplane and current on class, then you CAN be PIC at any point during the flight. If you are either not rated or not current then you cannot be PIC at all.
Therefore if pilot A is rated to fly in VMC and is flying the leg and pilot B has an IR but is passenger, then the minute the aeroplane enters the could then A cannot remain PIC but B *can* become PIC (which would be the most prudent course of action)....without any signatures etc. I guess the same applies to an NPPL flying to France, but should be talked about beforehand.
With a non PPL PAX, the same applies. They are not rated to fly the aeroplane so therefore can never be PIC, and pilot A remains PIC (as you have to have a PIC onboard!...in most circumstances!). There are not well defined rules to cover this, only from the viewpoint of logging the time - the pax cannot log anything, therefore Pilot A should log PIC, and it would be reasonable to assume that they are indeed PIC.
It is different for FI's as they will be PIC during a flight but of course then Pilot A cannot also be PIC but can log PUT....unless in the USA where by the FI logs "as flight instructor" and the qualified PPL as PIC.
Don't get too hung up on PIC, just agree beforehand what you are going to do. If Pilot A decides to fly in cloud then they are a prat unless they had previously agreed with pilot B that in those circumstances B would then be in command.
I've flown with non IR'd pilots that way and (depending who they are) am happy to monitor the flight from the RHS while they make could breaks, but with the understanding that if they start to get out of shape, I'll take control.
What was the original question?!
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It is clearly legal - insurance permitting - for two people to go up in a single crew aircraft, and swap over the PIC duty in any way they agree between themselves, and log it accordingly.
It would not make practical sense to enforce a prior "PIC" designation which must last for the entire leg, takeoff to landing.
If anybody tries to enforce a law which says differently, it isn't going to work, and whatever people do now they will continue to do.
One difference, I guess, will be that if A and B share the flight in a plane owned by A, but B ends up having (to comply with some law) to log it, then A will want to charge B some money because B's logbook has got the benefit. Unless of course A is not interested in logging time. In any case, they can straighten up the expense sharing after the flight
Unless there is a prang, with only one of the two surviving, but that situation can occur anyway, today.
It would not make practical sense to enforce a prior "PIC" designation which must last for the entire leg, takeoff to landing.
If anybody tries to enforce a law which says differently, it isn't going to work, and whatever people do now they will continue to do.
One difference, I guess, will be that if A and B share the flight in a plane owned by A, but B ends up having (to comply with some law) to log it, then A will want to charge B some money because B's logbook has got the benefit. Unless of course A is not interested in logging time. In any case, they can straighten up the expense sharing after the flight
Unless there is a prang, with only one of the two surviving, but that situation can occur anyway, today.
Avoid imitations
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On the whole it is rare for RHS command in private flights however it might be so argued retrospectively and almost always in my experience the pilots would have had some good reason for the RHS pilot being in command if that is what they had itended.
If you find yourself in command in the RHS then make the arrangement very clear and be prepared to "carry the can" if anything goes wrong. If you are in the LHS and think you are not in command make very certain the other pilot knows he is in command and is qualified to be so.
If you find yourself in command in the RHS then make the arrangement very clear and be prepared to "carry the can" if anything goes wrong. If you are in the LHS and think you are not in command make very certain the other pilot knows he is in command and is qualified to be so.
Regarding who is in charge of an aircraft or not, this report brings home how badly things can go wrong when one pilot assumes that the other might be in charge, or not.... a complete can of worms which resulted in tragedy:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...BK%2012-07.pdf
Avoid imitations
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You are more likely to find it in the Flight Manual.
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AFAIK, tandem gliders with dual controls have flight manuals making it clear that PIC can be in either front or back when flown 2 up.
Is that normally/often true for tandem power aircraft such as RF5, Supercub, etc.?
I believe it is also true for side-by-side 2-seat gliders if controls are duplicated or central, i.e. either pilot can reach all.
Same question re power planes.
Chris N.
Is that normally/often true for tandem power aircraft such as RF5, Supercub, etc.?
I believe it is also true for side-by-side 2-seat gliders if controls are duplicated or central, i.e. either pilot can reach all.
Same question re power planes.
Chris N.
It would not make practical sense to enforce a prior "PIC" designation which must last for the entire leg, takeoff to landing.
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Whopity - i dont follow, i didnt think it had been suggested the pilot was relinquishing command merely letting the other person wiggle the stick.
There is a huge difference. If the passenger merely places a hand on the stick following the pilot is this illegal? If the pilot takes his hand off the control does that make it any more or less legal? If the ap is on and the passengers places a hand on the yoke are his actions illegal? Silly examples perhaps but the commander is the commander and in all the debates past and doubtless future nothing has changed because he allows a passenger to handle the yoke.
Thats my feeling at any rate.
There is a huge difference. If the passenger merely places a hand on the stick following the pilot is this illegal? If the pilot takes his hand off the control does that make it any more or less legal? If the ap is on and the passengers places a hand on the yoke are his actions illegal? Silly examples perhaps but the commander is the commander and in all the debates past and doubtless future nothing has changed because he allows a passenger to handle the yoke.
Thats my feeling at any rate.
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I have now looked through the POH for the PA28, C172 and C152, and none say anything about where the PIC should sit. As far as I can see none even state that the PIC needs to be on the left hand seat when solo, so a solo flight from the RHS could be acceptable.
The ANO also doesn't state anything about seating position or manipulating the controls when it defines pilot in command.
Can anyone point me to any reference in the POH of a typical american spam can that the PIC should be on the left?
The ANO also doesn't state anything about seating position or manipulating the controls when it defines pilot in command.
Can anyone point me to any reference in the POH of a typical american spam can that the PIC should be on the left?
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But only the qualified pilot can legal fly the aeroplane under IFR unless undergoing instruction
I think it is very clear that Pilot A is flying outside the privileges of their licence once they accept an IFR clearance. However, if Pilot B becomes PIC at this point, then it is perfectly OK (in most countries) for Pilot B to allow Pilot A (now no different than a passenger) to handle the controls.
I did something very similar bringing my aircraft back from the States. I flew most of the sector and was in the left hand seat for the crossings. However, my ferry pilot (who was necessary for insurance) was the PIC and was nominated on the flight plan as such.
fs27,
Probably the only 'typical' spam cans with a requirement to be flown from the LHS are aircraft with brakes only on the LHS or flown under IFR when all (or an essential - like the annunciators on an RNAV apporach system) the instruments are on the LHS and it would be impractical/unsafe to operate from the RHS.
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fs27, in tandem seating aircraft flown solo, the sole occupant (and thus, the PIC) may have to sit in a certain seat due to W&B issues. For side by side seating, if all controls and instruments can be manipulated/seen from both seats, it typically doesn't matter, as said before.
