Who gets cheesed off taking fellow pilots up flying?
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I don't know it work fine for me when I was that age when I had been caught doing something stupid by the QSMI or one of his minions.
At least the lads won't have extra dutys or running up a hill backwards with a SLR being held at arms length.
You have actually got it on one, the issues are authority-gradient issues. How you cure that I don't really know in this day and age. I really don't think that a group hug and mutial respect session does any good whats so ever.
And they are exactly the same from what I have seen of groups of them turning up to stay current.
I am sure Genghis can supply storys of UAS students requiring a dressing down after some stupidity or other. I would be very suprised if that included a group hug.
And don't worry about the landing standard piss taking. I have a mate (Q400 skipper)that did a few choice ones 5 years ago and we still take the piss because we know he will always bite. We all do the occasional "bad" one as you get more experence they become less common.
At least the lads won't have extra dutys or running up a hill backwards with a SLR being held at arms length.
You have actually got it on one, the issues are authority-gradient issues. How you cure that I don't really know in this day and age. I really don't think that a group hug and mutial respect session does any good whats so ever.
And they are exactly the same from what I have seen of groups of them turning up to stay current.
I am sure Genghis can supply storys of UAS students requiring a dressing down after some stupidity or other. I would be very suprised if that included a group hug.
And don't worry about the landing standard piss taking. I have a mate (Q400 skipper)that did a few choice ones 5 years ago and we still take the piss because we know he will always bite. We all do the occasional "bad" one as you get more experence they become less common.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Jan 2012 at 19:53.
I am sure Genghis can supply storys of UAS students requiring a dressing down after some stupidity or other. I would be very suprised if that included a group hug.
Group bollocking, yes.
Modern CRM tends towards mutual hugging and bollocking according to circumstance however - with a "grown up" acting to facilitate that.
But you knew that
G
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Single Pilot Aircraft
I have boxed this off from day one. When I am PIC then nobody else touches the controls. I don't instruct, I just fly the aircraft. Passengers mostly just sit there and passenge!
Nobody "gets a clutch" when I am in the LHS and my name is in the tech log.
I do allow "aware" Passengers, subject to pre flight briefing, to set squawks or frequencies, even to change things on the GPS, but nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.
Nobody "gets a clutch" when I am in the LHS and my name is in the tech log.
I do allow "aware" Passengers, subject to pre flight briefing, to set squawks or frequencies, even to change things on the GPS, but nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.
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I do allow "aware" Passengers, subject to pre flight briefing, to set squawks or frequencies, even to change things on the GPS, but nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.
I regularly fly with chronically/terminally ill & mentally/physically disabled kids aged 6-16 for a Dutch charity - between 15 and 20 flights each year. Handicapped, disabled, mentally challenged as they are, most are very, very good at keeping the aircraft straight and level, and even in making shallow turns. It just comes intuitively to them. Obviously I'm the one doing the lookout, radio, navigation, and I've got my feet on the rudder pedals, my left hand secretly on the throttle (DR400 has two, so they don't notice when I'm using the other one) and the stick between my thighs, so there's not a lot that they can do wrong. But I rarely have to take control back from them, until it's time to land.
Due to their handicap these kids typically have a very low self esteem. Steering a light aircraft, when the largest vehicle they may ever have controlled is their bicycle in the best case, their own wheelchair in the worst case, is an enormous mental boost for them.
Now if I can trust a mentally challenged kid to touch the controls of my aircraft, surely you should be able to let a normal adult passenger do a spot of hand flying the aircraft?
(Obviously with mentally challenged kids briefing them beforehand about this is extra challenging, and when you want to take control back, there might be a few additional or special instructions. "Now put your hands on your knees again", for instance. And the responsible adult who sits behind this kid also gets a short but very firm briefing from me, as I may require them, in the ultimate case, to knock the kid unconscious if flight safety is really threatened. And over the years I have added a lot more things to my bag of tricks like that.)
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... nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.
Personally I enjoy seeing the look on a non-flying passengers face in the back seat of my tandem tailwheeler (front seat has a strategically placed mirror) when they "actually fly a plane".
I also enjoy seeing the look on the face of a PPL accustomed to PA28/38/C152 etc when they apply aileron without rudder, the wing goes one way and the nose swings the other way ...
And I certainly enjoyed it when a local pilot/owner let me handle his aircraft from the back seat .... my first time in a Chipmunk since I was a CCF cadet in the mid60s.
Experiences it would be a shame to miss.
Last edited by SlipSlider; 22nd Jan 2012 at 21:54.
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Take over if you are in imminent danger - and I mean really in imminent danger - if not keep your hands and comments to yourself,
Always offer the other pilot the chance to fly - unless you are not comfortable doing so - you are in charge and you need to know you (or the other pilot) can deal with whatever arises,
Remember unless the other pilot has quite a few right hour seats (actually flying) things will seem strange to him at first - he may well be an old hand at landings, but the first landing from the right seat may be an interesting experience.
Most pilots think they are better than they are. Weigh up your friend and let him weigh up you but dont be taken in by his hours or exeperience any more than yours - however if you know he has 400 or 500 plus hours to his credit he might just be worth listening to - most with, will not be reaching in a hurry for the controls without some good reason. Do remember you can always fall out later when you get back. You dont need to ask him to share a flight with you next time any more than he need join you.
Always offer the other pilot the chance to fly - unless you are not comfortable doing so - you are in charge and you need to know you (or the other pilot) can deal with whatever arises,
Remember unless the other pilot has quite a few right hour seats (actually flying) things will seem strange to him at first - he may well be an old hand at landings, but the first landing from the right seat may be an interesting experience.
Most pilots think they are better than they are. Weigh up your friend and let him weigh up you but dont be taken in by his hours or exeperience any more than yours - however if you know he has 400 or 500 plus hours to his credit he might just be worth listening to - most with, will not be reaching in a hurry for the controls without some good reason. Do remember you can always fall out later when you get back. You dont need to ask him to share a flight with you next time any more than he need join you.
A vital point however, if allowing anybody else to handle the main flight controls.
Some clear variation on "I have control" / "You have control". If you are letting them handle the controls - do so consciously and deliberately and they should accept that. If you take control back, the same applies.
Two people handling the controls at once is seldom a recipe for happiness, except in very particular circumstances. A passenger handling the yoke only whilst the pilot does everything else is one such circumstance, a student or instructor following through is another.
Whatever circumstance however, absolute clarity about who is doing what (as well as who is in charge) is vital.
G
Some clear variation on "I have control" / "You have control". If you are letting them handle the controls - do so consciously and deliberately and they should accept that. If you take control back, the same applies.
Two people handling the controls at once is seldom a recipe for happiness, except in very particular circumstances. A passenger handling the yoke only whilst the pilot does everything else is one such circumstance, a student or instructor following through is another.
Whatever circumstance however, absolute clarity about who is doing what (as well as who is in charge) is vital.
G
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I let kids fly too....Recently kids with cancer and also the Air Scouts. It is great to see the look on their face when they are piloting an aeroplane....especially the ones who will be dead in a few weeks. Very sad actually.....But I keep my feet on the pedals, tell them not to yank on the yoke and am ready to take control in an instant.
To be honest, most of them have been pretty good.
Me and my buddy were like the OP once upon a time, almost ended in tears during a "touch and go" with two girls in the back (and it was only pure luck we didn't leave the runway, but that is a story for another time......!). 10 years on I know that I knew nothing back then !
To be honest, most of them have been pretty good.
Me and my buddy were like the OP once upon a time, almost ended in tears during a "touch and go" with two girls in the back (and it was only pure luck we didn't leave the runway, but that is a story for another time......!). 10 years on I know that I knew nothing back then !
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will not be reaching in a hurry for the controls without some good reason
Avoid imitations
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Which works fine for hairy-@rsed old bu66ers like you and me Jock, but I think perhaps a group of young men with a few authority-gradient issues need a little more support, most likely as a group.
I learned my lesson about respecting the cockpit gradient some thirty years ago, when I was on my first tour, in an RAF Puma helicopter. We were hover-taxying across the airfield one night when the windscreens began misting up. I reached up and switched on the windscreen heaters without informing or asking the captain (the sadly missed but infamous George Blackie, Glaswegian QHI), who was handling pilot at the time. He told me if I ever touched a switch on "his" top switch panel again, without asking, he would break my ****ing fingers off and shove them where the sun don't shine.
He was right, I was wrong. Correct CRM is of paramount importance when two pilots fly together.
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Its just young blokes being young blokes and being tits.
Its just the same when everyone gets there driving license and the boys think it is fun to parp the horn and screw around with every control they can reach.
Its just the same when everyone gets there driving license and the boys think it is fun to parp the horn and screw around with every control they can reach.
I'm very old and I fly almost exclusively with very old pilots like myself:
Indeed I've flown some very long distances in far off countries with oldies like myself.
And I've never ever suffered the interference that the OP talks about.
At the beginning of the leg it's " right: you fly this leg and I'll fly after lunch"
How simple a notion can that be to adopt if you behave with a modicum of maturity.?
Cusco
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Cover it in the captains brief and you are done.
I know people think a captains breif is a bit ott but heres another reason to have one.
Great thread though and it covers an area that does not really get covered on the ppl.
I know people think a captains breif is a bit ott but heres another reason to have one.
Great thread though and it covers an area that does not really get covered on the ppl.
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I did a trial lesson for a blind person once and had absolutely no problem with him doing whatever he wanted, he had a great time.
Going back to the OP, next time you fly with your mate just make him sit in the back. He'll soon get the message!
Anyway, takeoff and landing is the best bit so if you've got someone flying S$L then it gives you more time soak up the scenery!
Going back to the OP, next time you fly with your mate just make him sit in the back. He'll soon get the message!
Anyway, takeoff and landing is the best bit so if you've got someone flying S$L then it gives you more time soak up the scenery!
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next time you fly with your mate just make him sit in the back. He'll soon get the message!
Avoid imitations
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Another accident report to highlight the potential dangers of allowing someone else to handle the aircraft.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...HM%2011-89.pdf
I was the last person to fly in this Skybolt (with the deceased), before it's fatal accident. I also sat in the front seat and we were flying aerobatics over exactly the same place.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...HM%2011-89.pdf
I was the last person to fly in this Skybolt (with the deceased), before it's fatal accident. I also sat in the front seat and we were flying aerobatics over exactly the same place.
