German Wings A##hole
Guest
Posts: n/a
Without commenting on this particular example, when mixing with 'big iron' on the ground, I've normally tried to give way and let them get in front.
They have 2 crew, fly as a day job, are fast at what they do and appreciate the courtesy.
And I'd rather have them in front of me, so I can take my time on the checks, as I'm all by my lonesome.
They have 2 crew, fly as a day job, are fast at what they do and appreciate the courtesy.
And I'd rather have them in front of me, so I can take my time on the checks, as I'm all by my lonesome.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
From: BFS
Remember if you are incapable of reading a taxi chart or taxiing at more than 5 knots it's less of a problem if you call the tower by telephone before you go. They will no doubt appreciate the warning and can plan around your lack of preparation/ increased caution by keeping you out of the way and giving you a follow me. I'm a big proponent of careful taxiing, avoiding runway incursions etc. but as BPF says if you want to mix it at major airports you must raise your game to a higher standard. If you can't then build your experience gradually.
As for having 'as much of a right to be there' I respectfully disagree. Let's use Prestwick as an example. If I were Ryanair I would feel justified in expecting priority over a 150 on a bacon roll run. They do after all make a substantial contribution to the operation of the airfield. One which depends on their success in factors like on time performance, keeping cost down etc.
Now if someone would tell Iberia and Spanair the same..............
As for having 'as much of a right to be there' I respectfully disagree. Let's use Prestwick as an example. If I were Ryanair I would feel justified in expecting priority over a 150 on a bacon roll run. They do after all make a substantial contribution to the operation of the airfield. One which depends on their success in factors like on time performance, keeping cost down etc.
Now if someone would tell Iberia and Spanair the same..............
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Reminds me of a time years ago. At Athens airport in a PA28-180, I was ready to depart and waiting at the hold for clearance to line up, when there was a big noise behind us getting louder and louder, obviously a large jet, sounding as if it was about to run us over.
I squeezed to the side, there was just enough room. As it passed I saw a hand waving in the cockpit side window, and the pilot thanked me courteously.
It was really a matter of course. He was on a schedule, I wasn't. Every minute he waited cost a lot more money than my delay. I wouldn't dream of insisting to go first!
At the time Athens didn't really know what to do with GA aircraft, we were told to join downwind in between a DC10 and a B747 as if we could keep up with them, and there was no way to go to Airside after clearing customs without going through one of the gate funnels. Hopefully things have improved a bit since then... "can you expedite?" when I was already barreling along at full throttle trying to figure out when/where I could lose enough speed to land... if ever.
I squeezed to the side, there was just enough room. As it passed I saw a hand waving in the cockpit side window, and the pilot thanked me courteously.
It was really a matter of course. He was on a schedule, I wasn't. Every minute he waited cost a lot more money than my delay. I wouldn't dream of insisting to go first!
At the time Athens didn't really know what to do with GA aircraft, we were told to join downwind in between a DC10 and a B747 as if we could keep up with them, and there was no way to go to Airside after clearing customs without going through one of the gate funnels. Hopefully things have improved a bit since then... "can you expedite?" when I was already barreling along at full throttle trying to figure out when/where I could lose enough speed to land... if ever.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
May as well cheer you all up with my embarassing moment in the Emerald Isle....
I was flying my Piper Supercub from near Banbury to Fermoyle. In stages.
Overnight at Sutton Bank, then on to Newtonard, then to Sligo, overnight again, and the last leg my turn (I was taking turns PIC with a friend). The radio had been erratic, and despite the chaps in Newtonard having "fixed" it, was still dodgy. Noticing while doing some local sightseeing over the Slieve Misch mountains, that there was quite a bit of turbulence - camera floating upwards, pilots floating upwards, etc, I asked Fermoyle - otherwise at the time known as KERRY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT - for the wind speed and direction.
"That will be ten knots out of the north, to be sure to be sure" replied the ATC, over the crackling static. As the cross wind limiting speed of a Superecub is 10 miles an hour, I thought no problem. "And Supercub Echo Romeo," the controller went on to say, "You are number one for Zero Nine, and Aer Lingus 737, you are number two behind the Supercub.....!"
Well, I knew my duty in this situation, forget about using the flaps, keep pedalling as fast as possible, 90 miles an hour, and hope the 737 stalling speed wouldn't be a problem for the Boeing! I crabbed in nicely, and just as I touched down on the narrow tarmac, from behind the terminal buildings (the EEC had given them quite a substantial grant for improvements, a new runway was actually under construction) there was a terrific gust from my left.
Down to walking pace by now, with the tail down already, the Cub decided to depart the paved area and head for a nice lawn on the right. When a taildragger decides to groundloop, there's not a lot you can do except DON'T use the wheelbrakes, and wait. Trouble is, it wasn't a lawn, it was a swamp!
And just like Alcock and Brown, we ended ass end up in an Irish bog.
When my fellow pilot saw the avgas dripping out of the wings, he had no trouble whatsoever exiting the back seat, he hit the ground running full tilt.
The Kerry Fire Brigade was there in no time, hoses at the ready! I turned off the switches, descended, and said "Don't squirt, please! There's no fire!"
They helped to push us off the active to the apron, and checked the runway for any bits that might have dropped off.....meanwhile, Aer Lingus, full of wondering American Tourists, was going around and around. It was, after all, the only scheduled aircraft a day to visit Kerry. When eventually permitted to land, they all climbed down the step with cameras at the ready. I was too mortified to pose. And the Airport Manager said I would have to be interviewed by the police. Waiting in the office for a couple of hours, at last the Guarda showed up, notebook at the ready.
"How many killed in the accident?" None, actually.
"Injured?" None, to be sure.
"Any damage at all?" None. (that was true! Very soft bog!)
"Well" said the officer, snapping his notebook shut with a flourish,"I don't have to make a report then!"
I never heard anything from Aer Lingus either.......
I was flying my Piper Supercub from near Banbury to Fermoyle. In stages.
Overnight at Sutton Bank, then on to Newtonard, then to Sligo, overnight again, and the last leg my turn (I was taking turns PIC with a friend). The radio had been erratic, and despite the chaps in Newtonard having "fixed" it, was still dodgy. Noticing while doing some local sightseeing over the Slieve Misch mountains, that there was quite a bit of turbulence - camera floating upwards, pilots floating upwards, etc, I asked Fermoyle - otherwise at the time known as KERRY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT - for the wind speed and direction.
"That will be ten knots out of the north, to be sure to be sure" replied the ATC, over the crackling static. As the cross wind limiting speed of a Superecub is 10 miles an hour, I thought no problem. "And Supercub Echo Romeo," the controller went on to say, "You are number one for Zero Nine, and Aer Lingus 737, you are number two behind the Supercub.....!"
Well, I knew my duty in this situation, forget about using the flaps, keep pedalling as fast as possible, 90 miles an hour, and hope the 737 stalling speed wouldn't be a problem for the Boeing! I crabbed in nicely, and just as I touched down on the narrow tarmac, from behind the terminal buildings (the EEC had given them quite a substantial grant for improvements, a new runway was actually under construction) there was a terrific gust from my left.
Down to walking pace by now, with the tail down already, the Cub decided to depart the paved area and head for a nice lawn on the right. When a taildragger decides to groundloop, there's not a lot you can do except DON'T use the wheelbrakes, and wait. Trouble is, it wasn't a lawn, it was a swamp!
And just like Alcock and Brown, we ended ass end up in an Irish bog.
When my fellow pilot saw the avgas dripping out of the wings, he had no trouble whatsoever exiting the back seat, he hit the ground running full tilt.
The Kerry Fire Brigade was there in no time, hoses at the ready! I turned off the switches, descended, and said "Don't squirt, please! There's no fire!"
They helped to push us off the active to the apron, and checked the runway for any bits that might have dropped off.....meanwhile, Aer Lingus, full of wondering American Tourists, was going around and around. It was, after all, the only scheduled aircraft a day to visit Kerry. When eventually permitted to land, they all climbed down the step with cameras at the ready. I was too mortified to pose. And the Airport Manager said I would have to be interviewed by the police. Waiting in the office for a couple of hours, at last the Guarda showed up, notebook at the ready.
"How many killed in the accident?" None, actually.
"Injured?" None, to be sure.
"Any damage at all?" None. (that was true! Very soft bog!)
"Well" said the officer, snapping his notebook shut with a flourish,"I don't have to make a report then!"
I never heard anything from Aer Lingus either.......
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
From: Delsey
Nice story Mary. Maybe better for all involved to let the paraffin budgie land first in those scenarios, however. Only scheduled arrival and holding for a cub does not give small g/a a great reputation! (I see this argument from both sides of the fence)
Only last week I was told to hold on a taxiway (in a medium Bizjet) as the Aegean airbus (who had no slot) cut in front at a Mediterranean International airport. ATC simply said airlines had priority...We had a slot, that's poor ATC planning and conduct in my opinion.
Only last week I was told to hold on a taxiway (in a medium Bizjet) as the Aegean airbus (who had no slot) cut in front at a Mediterranean International airport. ATC simply said airlines had priority...We had a slot, that's poor ATC planning and conduct in my opinion.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
I had something similar going into Annecy a couple of years ago. We were arriving from the west, crossing the valley to join downwind left hand.
A French "airliner" (small) was taxying out to take off, and the pilot demanded that ATC should keep the "little aeroplane" out of the way until he had taken off and cleared the area. I ignored his request (it wasn't to me), as did ATC. He got a little hotter, by which time I was level with the upwind threshold and called "downwind". He was then cleared to go, and went. If we delayed him at all (which I doubt), it was for less than a minute.
When we got into the terminal, we were met by a grinning ATPL, well-festooned in gold braid, who had been listening to it all. He told me about this pilot's reputation - apparently he requires a completely clear sky before he's happy to take off, and the performance we witnessed is a regular feature.
Had we both been on the ground, I'd have given way to him gladly.
A French "airliner" (small) was taxying out to take off, and the pilot demanded that ATC should keep the "little aeroplane" out of the way until he had taken off and cleared the area. I ignored his request (it wasn't to me), as did ATC. He got a little hotter, by which time I was level with the upwind threshold and called "downwind". He was then cleared to go, and went. If we delayed him at all (which I doubt), it was for less than a minute.
When we got into the terminal, we were met by a grinning ATPL, well-festooned in gold braid, who had been listening to it all. He told me about this pilot's reputation - apparently he requires a completely clear sky before he's happy to take off, and the performance we witnessed is a regular feature.
Had we both been on the ground, I'd have given way to him gladly.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: N. Europe
Slow taxying airplane ahead + hot brakes = a problem ATC may, or may not, be able to help resolve. Hence, completely appropriate to inform ATC that the slow taxying airplane is a problem. Now, we do not know the wording used, so we can't call foul.
Had I been in the GA plane, the next call would have have been "tower, spamcan 123, feel free to give me a detour to let the jet pass". Less dead dinosaurs burnt, less people delayed and I'm usually on a less tight schedule. I won't miss a connection if I'm off the ground three minutes later.
Way I see it, right of way is there to use if you need it. Otherwise, maximize the common good. In aviation and in traffic. Obviously while being courteous and professional.
Once taxied a C172 down the entire length of the 2.5 km runway, behind the mowing tractor who wasn't interested in leaving way, moving at walking pace - while a company (turbine) aircraft was holding for landing following a PC. An unique opportunity to get called a "magneto pram" (freely translated) over the R/T...
Had I been in the GA plane, the next call would have have been "tower, spamcan 123, feel free to give me a detour to let the jet pass". Less dead dinosaurs burnt, less people delayed and I'm usually on a less tight schedule. I won't miss a connection if I'm off the ground three minutes later.
Way I see it, right of way is there to use if you need it. Otherwise, maximize the common good. In aviation and in traffic. Obviously while being courteous and professional.
Once taxied a C172 down the entire length of the 2.5 km runway, behind the mowing tractor who wasn't interested in leaving way, moving at walking pace - while a company (turbine) aircraft was holding for landing following a PC. An unique opportunity to get called a "magneto pram" (freely translated) over the R/T...
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,451
Likes: 6
From: schermoney and left front seat
Gimme a break, these guys are used as examples why GA shouldnīt be allowed to go places like Barcelona.
Oh, ok, no GA at all the larger airports? Just because one GA pilot complains about the attitude of a so called professional?
Now, dear sir, you give me a break.
Oh, ok, no GA at all the larger airports? Just because one GA pilot complains about the attitude of a so called professional?
Now, dear sir, you give me a break.
No GA on larger airports is on the agenda of almost everybody: airlines, airports and the EU, namely Mr.Siim Kallas, EU Commissioner for Transport who wants to get rid of GA - GA of any size - on bigger European airports in order to maximize the amount of passengers. This goes on unnoticed by most of GA pilots and their organizations. The EBAA itself has written a letter to Kallas that very carefully details that we donīt want to 'intrude' into airlines territory...instead of telling this guy that we demand our right to operate there....
Many airports are already more or less non GA territory.
People like the TO will be used as examples why GA has to excluded from hubs. That is what I said and nothing else. Where in my post you find that Iīm for a ban of GA at large airports remains your secret.
ATC simply said airlines had priority...We had a slot, that's poor ATC planning and conduct in my opinion.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Its not just german wings that can be a bit fly with this.
BA can do very slow taxi speeds so they can get the cabin secure and loadsheet in and can be very tatical blocking intersections until they are ready to go.
Once got swung off behind them after calling ready at mid point, to back track. Asked to expidite so gave it some and the BA started over taking from intially doing 6knt taxi with us behind them on the taxiway. When the FO called airspeed alive I backed off. They got to the hold before we turned and started bitching they want to go due slot. Didn't work mind
BA can do very slow taxi speeds so they can get the cabin secure and loadsheet in and can be very tatical blocking intersections until they are ready to go.
Once got swung off behind them after calling ready at mid point, to back track. Asked to expidite so gave it some and the BA started over taking from intially doing 6knt taxi with us behind them on the taxiway. When the FO called airspeed alive I backed off. They got to the hold before we turned and started bitching they want to go due slot. Didn't work mind
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
From: Delsey
BA can do very slow taxi speeds so they can get the cabin secure and loadsheet in and can be very tatical blocking intersections until they are ready to go.
