PFL-Field Choice
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Hello all,
Thanks for all you replies so far, some useful thoughts there! Hadn't thought about the Bull issue!
In response to IO540 and the military "technical method" ref hi key/Low Key, "ARF" etc; this is indeed the way which I am taught. I admit that the theory of it sounds complicated, but it seems to make sense to aim for a set point in the field and then work your circuit in accordance with landing near that point
A and C, I like your point ref Rule 5 and totally see your point. When I quizzed my QFI on Rule 5 during the briefing, he implied that it was a rather grey area with PFLs. maybe as long as you are not over a person, structure, vehicle (Ostrich?!?) PFLs are OK. Will see when he tells me to go-around!
The actual physicality of the circuit seems to me pretty much like the glide circuit on an airfield - am I right?! My lunchtime reading this week is PFLs and hope to fly them for the first time on Friday...
Don't know what other flying clubs/schools do, but speaking personally, my QFI and I do spend time discussing why the engine could fail and how to try and prevent the engine from stopping... carb icing, FEEL cx etc...its just that we are usually doing so when in the Mess or clubhouse!
GQ
Thanks for all you replies so far, some useful thoughts there! Hadn't thought about the Bull issue!
The more technical method, also taught by the military (low key, high key, etc) is to pick a field nearly below and follow one of several specific procedures to fly a circuit into it. That's great if you are good and current and practiced, and has the advantage that you are better placed to survey it for obstacles etc, but I think most PPLs will not make such a good job of it when under pressure.
A and C, I like your point ref Rule 5 and totally see your point. When I quizzed my QFI on Rule 5 during the briefing, he implied that it was a rather grey area with PFLs. maybe as long as you are not over a person, structure, vehicle (Ostrich?!?) PFLs are OK. Will see when he tells me to go-around!
The actual physicality of the circuit seems to me pretty much like the glide circuit on an airfield - am I right?! My lunchtime reading this week is PFLs and hope to fly them for the first time on Friday...
Don't know what other flying clubs/schools do, but speaking personally, my QFI and I do spend time discussing why the engine could fail and how to try and prevent the engine from stopping... carb icing, FEEL cx etc...its just that we are usually doing so when in the Mess or clubhouse!
GQ
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Quote: “ . . . he implied that it was a rather grey area with PFLs”
I would be interested to know what is grey about it. If not landing, I thought Rule 5 was quite unambiguous.
Chris N.
I would be interested to know what is grey about it. If not landing, I thought Rule 5 was quite unambiguous.
Chris N.
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Speaking as an ex glider pilot and student PPL, it's not always that easy to tell the difference between various crops, and field suitability in general. Depends on all sorts of factors such as the wind, sunlight etc but mostly in my limited experience the stress level of the pilot is likely to be the deciding factor.
I have retrieved gliders from the most appalling fields. One had a 10% dowslope (they were lucky to get it down at all). The pilot landed there because they had seen another glider in the same field so assumed it was OK - but the first pilot ended up there because he'd forgotten his sun hat and had no water. Suffering somewhat from the effects of the sun he'd realised far too late his day was going to end in a field and accepted the least worst option.
Another friend landed in a boggy meadow with 2 foot high scrub - that was a "carry out". It was getting dark, stress had set in. He didn't relaise until the last few seconds that it was not the best choice.
On the converse, many people end up in fields that are better than some gliding site airfields. the deciding factor has always been that they have made the decision early enough that they aren't overloaded an stressed.
I myself had a particularly memorable field landing cocked up my GPS settings for a task and forgot to enter the coordinates for the last leg. At the end of a fun but tiring flight I started to panic and faff rather than take a minute to look at the chart and work out. Worse I was at the edge of the Cotswolds so hardly the best area for a field landing. Fortunately I made a decision in good time to forget trying to get back and find a safe field. There was one shortish straight into wind, half "green" and half brown. I convinced myself the green half was fruit bushes of some kind (backed up in my mind by some machinery which looked like fruit packing equipment) so went for the brown, hoping it was smooth. Doing my circuit I spotted on base leg power line poles, so ended up with a fairly narrow slot in which to land. Turned out to be the most finely tilled field I have ever seen, with the smoothest surface possible, baked hard by the sun. The green half was in fact grass. It was the farmwers new polo pitch, and I was told I would have been in deep trouble if I'd landed on that!
I often wonder how that episode would have turned out had I made my a decision to land out a little later. Would I have gone for a different field, one that was hilly or rocky? Would I have gone straight into the field I landed in? If so would I have seen the power lines in time to do anything about it? I don't know, but doubt it would have ended with a flawless landing and a smug taxi up to the gate at the far end.
What's the moral in all this? For me I do the PFL drills as I am taught. But if it ever happens for real my primary concern will be to modify that drill in order to reduce my stress levels ASAP to make sure my decision making and flying skills are as good as they can be. If I'm at a realitively low level, that might mean dispensing with attempting to restart and concentrate on the flying instead. Might be better off picking the least worst field, thinking about where to aim to touchdown and positioning for that, and then touching down with as little energy as possible.
I would avoid livestock (in particular sheep, a sudden shadow can cause them to leap into your path). But really the things that are going to kill you are ditches, power lines, severe slopes, landing downwind and running into the hedge/wall.
Landing in tall crop will trash your aircraft but it will not kill or seriously injure you so frankly the crop would be the lest of my considerations, particularly given that engine failure will likely be a high stress situation and therefore difficult to identify crops. And in any case what are you going to do about it with perhaps 3 minutes left until you hit the deck, far less if you start significant manouvering? Might be better off to brief the pax for a rough landing and make the best of it?
I suppose we will all have different views. There will be times the drill is absolutely the right thing to do, but there will be times when it is absolutely not the right thing to do. All IMHO.
I have retrieved gliders from the most appalling fields. One had a 10% dowslope (they were lucky to get it down at all). The pilot landed there because they had seen another glider in the same field so assumed it was OK - but the first pilot ended up there because he'd forgotten his sun hat and had no water. Suffering somewhat from the effects of the sun he'd realised far too late his day was going to end in a field and accepted the least worst option.
Another friend landed in a boggy meadow with 2 foot high scrub - that was a "carry out". It was getting dark, stress had set in. He didn't relaise until the last few seconds that it was not the best choice.
On the converse, many people end up in fields that are better than some gliding site airfields. the deciding factor has always been that they have made the decision early enough that they aren't overloaded an stressed.
I myself had a particularly memorable field landing cocked up my GPS settings for a task and forgot to enter the coordinates for the last leg. At the end of a fun but tiring flight I started to panic and faff rather than take a minute to look at the chart and work out. Worse I was at the edge of the Cotswolds so hardly the best area for a field landing. Fortunately I made a decision in good time to forget trying to get back and find a safe field. There was one shortish straight into wind, half "green" and half brown. I convinced myself the green half was fruit bushes of some kind (backed up in my mind by some machinery which looked like fruit packing equipment) so went for the brown, hoping it was smooth. Doing my circuit I spotted on base leg power line poles, so ended up with a fairly narrow slot in which to land. Turned out to be the most finely tilled field I have ever seen, with the smoothest surface possible, baked hard by the sun. The green half was in fact grass. It was the farmwers new polo pitch, and I was told I would have been in deep trouble if I'd landed on that!
I often wonder how that episode would have turned out had I made my a decision to land out a little later. Would I have gone for a different field, one that was hilly or rocky? Would I have gone straight into the field I landed in? If so would I have seen the power lines in time to do anything about it? I don't know, but doubt it would have ended with a flawless landing and a smug taxi up to the gate at the far end.
What's the moral in all this? For me I do the PFL drills as I am taught. But if it ever happens for real my primary concern will be to modify that drill in order to reduce my stress levels ASAP to make sure my decision making and flying skills are as good as they can be. If I'm at a realitively low level, that might mean dispensing with attempting to restart and concentrate on the flying instead. Might be better off picking the least worst field, thinking about where to aim to touchdown and positioning for that, and then touching down with as little energy as possible.
I would avoid livestock (in particular sheep, a sudden shadow can cause them to leap into your path). But really the things that are going to kill you are ditches, power lines, severe slopes, landing downwind and running into the hedge/wall.
Landing in tall crop will trash your aircraft but it will not kill or seriously injure you so frankly the crop would be the lest of my considerations, particularly given that engine failure will likely be a high stress situation and therefore difficult to identify crops. And in any case what are you going to do about it with perhaps 3 minutes left until you hit the deck, far less if you start significant manouvering? Might be better off to brief the pax for a rough landing and make the best of it?
I suppose we will all have different views. There will be times the drill is absolutely the right thing to do, but there will be times when it is absolutely not the right thing to do. All IMHO.
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Jeez - bulls do get some bad press from you glider-types!
I'm generally equally as wary of a cow with a calf at foot, esp if you have a small dog with you - probably not a factor with a glider!
Stik
I'm generally equally as wary of a cow with a calf at foot, esp if you have a small dog with you - probably not a factor with a glider!
Stik
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PFLs and Rule 5
Thankyou P Boyall, that sounds like the answer to what my instructor was referring to when he said that there were "Grey areas" wrt PFLs and Rule 5.
I think my instructor may also have been referring to whether PFLs do or do not come into "Normal Aviation Practice". Logic would have told me that they did......
Anyway, i'll know more when I've flown some PFLs with him....
GQ
I think my instructor may also have been referring to whether PFLs do or do not come into "Normal Aviation Practice". Logic would have told me that they did......
Anyway, i'll know more when I've flown some PFLs with him....
GQ
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Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?
I was already aimed at the airfield, 7 miles away, so decided to carry on, as not yet losing a lot of height....and as the wind was not all that strong, I made a straight in downwind landing. That surprised the examiner, who had expected me to go for a complete circuit and screw up a final turn....
But in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking. Other things being equal, it is worth considering. In fact, any instructors reading this, have you tried it lately?
I was already aimed at the airfield, 7 miles away, so decided to carry on, as not yet losing a lot of height....and as the wind was not all that strong, I made a straight in downwind landing. That surprised the examiner, who had expected me to go for a complete circuit and screw up a final turn....
But in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking. Other things being equal, it is worth considering. In fact, any instructors reading this, have you tried it lately?
Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?
I was already aimed at the airfield, 7 miles away, so decided to carry on, as not yet losing a lot of height....and as the wind was not all that strong, I made a straight in downwind landing. That surprised the examiner, who had expected me to go for a complete circuit and screw up a final turn....
But in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking. Other things being equal, it is worth considering. In fact, any instructors reading this, have you tried it lately?
I was already aimed at the airfield, 7 miles away, so decided to carry on, as not yet losing a lot of height....and as the wind was not all that strong, I made a straight in downwind landing. That surprised the examiner, who had expected me to go for a complete circuit and screw up a final turn....
But in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking. Other things being equal, it is worth considering. In fact, any instructors reading this, have you tried it lately?
With respect to partial power failures, my experience is almost no one knows what the approximate minimum RPM (or Manifold Pressure) their aircraft requires to maintain level flight. In the event of a partial engine failure, you should be able to look at the power gauges and know right away whether you can continue or whether you are going down, as the decision making process will be different for the two possibilities.
[[off topic]]
And so do their counterparts at LFNA Gap, and even more worrying so do the paradroppers there too in Twin Otters and Turbo Porters. Makes one prefer NOT to land at the a/d if suddenly faced with a power outage, especially if/when flying NORDO.
in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking
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what to do with too much engine power!
Originally Posted by mary meagher
Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?
Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?
As ppl training seems to concentrate on loss of engine power and how to deal with it, it did throw me! (I'm a low hours ppl so am still learning a lot!)
The answer was of course simple (ok, the instructor told me) - full flaps to reduce speed, fly back to your airfield, then full idle cut off to stop engine and do a glide approach.
It was a very good example to me of having something thrown at you that is completely unexpected and not covered in basic training!
Couldn't you have reduced power by twiddling the mixture and/or by switching to one single magneto, too?
((but I do realise it is much more easy to type this at my leisure than to think of it at unawares and under stress!))
((but I do realise it is much more easy to type this at my leisure than to think of it at unawares and under stress!))
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What about VFe? Seems a bit dodgy to me, unless you get those flaps down sharpish (or sling it into a steep climb then put the flaps down).
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It was a very good example to me of having something thrown at you that is completely unexpected and not covered in basic training!
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The unexpected
Interesting reading the thread change (not that i'm complaining, its an interesting one!!) I suppose you cannot prepare for all eventualities, but I guess PFLs, glide and flapless circuits all prepare the pilot for the USUAL emergencies.
On the emergency front I have so far also covered the Emergency break and later on i'm promised maximum rate turns. But on a Skills Test, I would hope that the examiner does not throw something really unexpected at the student? Any examiners out there want to assure me that they wouldn't for a Skills Test??
Thing - Fly back to the airfield and stooge around - .....don't know about yours, but if I stooged around in our MATZ just burning fuel, I think the Tower may have something to say...especially if there is a fast jet or slightly nutty King Air pilot in the vicinity...
On the emergency front I have so far also covered the Emergency break and later on i'm promised maximum rate turns. But on a Skills Test, I would hope that the examiner does not throw something really unexpected at the student? Any examiners out there want to assure me that they wouldn't for a Skills Test??
Thing - Fly back to the airfield and stooge around - .....don't know about yours, but if I stooged around in our MATZ just burning fuel, I think the Tower may have something to say...especially if there is a fast jet or slightly nutty King Air pilot in the vicinity...
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If you call a Pan-Pan you can do whatever you like at places like Cranwell and Waddington, and pretty much everywhere else 
Stuck go-go button = fun 
Edit: FWIW I'd position in the overhead cut the mixture, carb heat on, and do an AFL to the runway (if capacity permits the grass on the Northern at Cranwell perhaps? Wouldn't want to Black the runway in use if possible) if it happened for real. At full power flying level in a straight line flying at a speed within the caution range isn't going to be an issue (upon reaching Vne I'm unsure, but a climb will sort that out).
Stuck go-go button = fun Edit: FWIW I'd position in the overhead cut the mixture, carb heat on, and do an AFL to the runway (if capacity permits the grass on the Northern at Cranwell perhaps? Wouldn't want to Black the runway in use if possible) if it happened for real. At full power flying level in a straight line flying at a speed within the caution range isn't going to be an issue (upon reaching Vne I'm unsure, but a climb will sort that out).
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Ohhhh, yesssss, silly me! That just proves that I haven't taken my FTROL yet doesn't it, of course the call of Pan Pan would be made!!
Geewhizz - I take your point about not wishing to black the main runway at one of her maj's airfields, but our North airfield is quite small and on good weekends practically always has gliders on it! We also have a grass strip and my instructor has indeed suggested when practising glide circuits that it may be better sometimes to go for the grass strip in a real emergency.
Oh, and our Bling Airs just like to spread their favours around...wouldn't want other stations to feel they were missing out!!!
Geewhizz - I take your point about not wishing to black the main runway at one of her maj's airfields, but our North airfield is quite small and on good weekends practically always has gliders on it! We also have a grass strip and my instructor has indeed suggested when practising glide circuits that it may be better sometimes to go for the grass strip in a real emergency.
Oh, and our Bling Airs just like to spread their favours around...wouldn't want other stations to feel they were missing out!!!
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I take your point about not wishing to black the main runway at one of her maj's airfields, but our North airfield is quite small and on good weekends practically always has gliders on it! We also have a grass strip and my instructor has indeed suggested when practising glide circuits that it may be better sometimes to go for the grass strip in a real emergency.
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As one who did indeed nearly render some runway lights inoperable on 26/08 earlier this year..and still got mentioned in Station execs the next Monday morning.... I totally agree!!
I think, even as a student, I would land anywhere thats possible...then explain it to the Stn Cdr!
I think, even as a student, I would land anywhere thats possible...then explain it to the Stn Cdr!
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PFL's & Rule 5
Pboyall has just about covered this, there was a statement in GASIL to the effect that the CAA would not take action if PFL's were being conducted is a sensble way.
The reason for this was that a court case that took action aganst a flying instructor failed in some style and in the view of most people should not have been taken in the first place.
In this case the instructor was teaching EFATO when a person (who was known for complaning to the airfield) got together two witnesses, the CAA took the action on the basis of these people's evidence.
When the case came to court the main complaners wife failed to turn up (calling in sick) his evidence was sutch that you would have the wheels of the aircraft just a few feet above the house and the third witness (remember the aircraft was just above the house by only feet) could not tell the court if the aircraft was a high or low wing type!
It became clear that from evidence of other complants made by the main witness that there was an agenda that had nothing to do with low flying.
Quite frankly after sitting through two days of this case it was clear to all that the CAA's leagal team had built a very poor case and had to pay the defendants costs after the verdict had been reached.
The GASIL statment was writen aganst this background so I take from this that your most likely way to get into trouble with PFL or EFATO work is to repetedly use the same location for the practice as it is unlikely that a bystander will get your registration or take action on the first pass.
I go around above 500ft if I spot livestock or people in the area or if the student has picked a field near buildings.
If the above conditions have been made and a safe landing could be made in the event of the engine not responding I am quite happy to let the student go down to 20-30ft before going around.
It instructors should keep in mind that they have a responsability to provide realistic training so that in the event of the student having an engine failure they are fully equiped to carry out a forced landing, this is a duty of care that instructors have not only to the student pilot but also to the PUBLIC ON THE GROUND who might be unfortunate to be in the location of an aircraft that has suffered an engine failure.
The reason for this was that a court case that took action aganst a flying instructor failed in some style and in the view of most people should not have been taken in the first place.
In this case the instructor was teaching EFATO when a person (who was known for complaning to the airfield) got together two witnesses, the CAA took the action on the basis of these people's evidence.
When the case came to court the main complaners wife failed to turn up (calling in sick) his evidence was sutch that you would have the wheels of the aircraft just a few feet above the house and the third witness (remember the aircraft was just above the house by only feet) could not tell the court if the aircraft was a high or low wing type!
It became clear that from evidence of other complants made by the main witness that there was an agenda that had nothing to do with low flying.
Quite frankly after sitting through two days of this case it was clear to all that the CAA's leagal team had built a very poor case and had to pay the defendants costs after the verdict had been reached.
The GASIL statment was writen aganst this background so I take from this that your most likely way to get into trouble with PFL or EFATO work is to repetedly use the same location for the practice as it is unlikely that a bystander will get your registration or take action on the first pass.
I go around above 500ft if I spot livestock or people in the area or if the student has picked a field near buildings.
If the above conditions have been made and a safe landing could be made in the event of the engine not responding I am quite happy to let the student go down to 20-30ft before going around.
It instructors should keep in mind that they have a responsability to provide realistic training so that in the event of the student having an engine failure they are fully equiped to carry out a forced landing, this is a duty of care that instructors have not only to the student pilot but also to the PUBLIC ON THE GROUND who might be unfortunate to be in the location of an aircraft that has suffered an engine failure.
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Seriously, if it is an emergency - which a jammed throttle arguably would be - you will have called Mayday and the Tower should render all possible assistance
Heck, if experienced pilots are monitoring the frequency (and in case of an emergency, you can expect they will) and they figure out you're close to panicking and the tower doesn't do anything about it, they will jump in with some sensible advice. (Remember that the tower controller, although the authority on the frequency, might not be a pilot himself, and might not know tricks like the ones mentioned.)
As others said, in an emergency all rules go out the window. (I was assisting in an emergency a while ago and accidently flew too high, into class A airspace. Didn't hear any word from the tower about that, although they were radar vectoring me to the scene so they must've noticed. Only until the - fortunately undamaged - aircraft and occupants were in sight did I get the polite question whether I would be able to descend a little.)
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