Private Flying hour building

[uberwang]

Hi Guys,

I am looking to build up some flight time and have access to an aircraft. What are the rules on taking people for sight seeing flights and having them cover all the costs but nothing more than that? Is that a go or a no? I believe in the states there is a minimum amount the operator must cover in such circumstances.

Also, and I know I could answer this one myself but seeing as I am here, If I fly VFR to the UK from Europe, do I have to land at a customs airfield? Looking for somewhere around the King's Lynn area to fly into.

Thanks

Uberwang

[abgd]

Are you talking about taking passengers for flights in Malta or the UK?

In the UK you have to share part of the costs yourslef and the flights can't be advertised in advance. And if you did an UK PPL you should know where to look up the answer anyway.

[uberwang]

No flights would be in central Europe, and no I did not do an English PPL. Is there a percentage the operator must cover?

[mad_jock]

You will have to contact the local CAA.

I suspect that what you plan to do will be illegal in most JAR countries.

[BackPacker]

Agree. This will be covered in the legislation of the country that issued you your PPL. But generally what it comes down to is that you cannot advertise this, and that the pilot has to pay an equal share of the direct costs of the flight. To fly for free or even to make money on these flights requires a CPL.

In addition to this, for a lot of for-hire operation types, the operator needs an AOC as well. And the airplane itself may be subject to a more strict maintenance regime for aerial work, and you might need more extensive insurance cover.

And consider this. A lot of people have invested a lot of money in their CPL, AOC and whatnot, and will not appreciate you stealing their business on a mere PPL, borderlining on illegal flying (or being outright illegal). Sooner rather than later they will inform the authorities about you.

[Ultranomad]

To fly for free or even to make money on these flights requires a CPL.

Making money would definitely require CPL, but flying for free would be legal in some countries. Czech Republic is one; it also grants PPL(A) holders CPL privileges (that is, the right to make money) when flying an ultralight.

[RTN11]

In the UK, you must pay your pro rata share, or a minimum of 25% of the reasonable costs incurred.

Finding friends and family off the street and getting them to pay most of the price is one thing, but taking random punters you've never met before up will certainly be dodgy ground. I'd rather not have to answer awkward questions if something were to go wrong.

Bear in mind that if you give someone the impression you're operating some sort of sight seeing tour, they will assume you have certain insurance in place which you will not.

And yes, you would need a customs airfield. Check the AIP for those available. Basically, by filing your flight plan the customs people will be aware of your arrival, but they may not actually turn up to meet you. Sort of a spot check type thing.

[uberwang]

The idea is to try and get as many friends and family as possible to come have a flight with me and share some of the costs. There is no plan to advertise at all other than directly asking people I know. Really I just wondered what the minimum amount I need to pay for the flight is.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Equal shares - straightforward enough.

4 POB - you need to contribute a quarter of the total. 2 POB, half, etc.

G

[Pace]

G

i hAve flown commercially for a long time so can you clarify something?

Obviously if you rent the club aircraft wet its easy to know your cost ie 2 hr trip at £140 per hour equals £70 per head of 4.

Private owned aircraft you could factor in many items including depreciation etc to come to a much higher true hourly cost? How does that work?

Pace

[BackPacker]

Private owned aircraft you could factor in many items including depreciation etc to come to a much higher true hourly cost? How does that work?

Good question. It really is a grey area. Obviously the direct costs such as fuel can be shared, but as far as indirect costs/annual costs are concerned, it's a matter of how far you can convince the inspector to go.

But I guess this sort of stuff doesn't appear in court proceedings all that much so there's no hard and fast rule.

I think IO540 has pursued this with the CAA a while ago. He might be along shortly.

[Whopity]

Have you looked at the aircraft insurance policy, does it allow you to carry fare paying passengers? What does the owner have to say about this? Have you considered personal liability in case anything goes wrong? Talk to Mr Attard at the DCA!

The Malta ANO is much the same as the UK ANO. Carriage of a fare paying passenger is Public Transport and as a PPL holder you cannot conduct public transport flights. It is therefore a question of what proportion of the costs a passenger can contribute on a private flight where you will have to pay your share.

[SlipSlider]

Private owned aircraft you could factor in many items including depreciation etc to come to a much higher true hourly cost? How does that work?

I cannot quote chapter and verse, but my understanding has always been that it doesn't (work, that is). For a G-reg private owner only the costs incurred operating that flight can be used in the calculation of the amount that can be shared equally to the occupants on that flight i.e fuel, oil, landing fees, and I guess handling fees should they be incurred. No element of overhead costs such as insurance, engine fund, hangarage, depreciation, maintenance, etc can be included.

For that reason I would not accept contributions towards any flight in my Champ by another pilot as passenger, lest their £25 contribution to my direct cost of around £50 for an hour be followed by an expectation for a contribution of many times that amount should I go for a flight with them in their hired aircraft!

In fact I don't accept contributions from any passenger. But I do let them buy me lunch.

[Genghis the Engineer]

.

For that reason I would not accept contributions towards any flight in my Champ by another pilot as passenger, lest their £25 contribution to my direct cost of around £50 for an hour be followed by an expectation for a contribution of many times that amount should I go for a flight with them in their hired aircraft!

In fact I don't accept contributions from any passenger. But I do let them buy me lunch.

Likewise - whatever shared aeroplane I'm flying, it'll be cheaper than somebody else's rental aeroplane.

Pace - in answer to your question, I don't really know nor do I think that anything's ever been clearly defined. On the whole I think that if an owner or part owner asks for a share of their direct hourly costs - they're certainly safe anyhow.

G

[SlipSlider]

The Air Navigation Order in CAP393 (pages 202/3 of 480) appears to be pertinent.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf

Part 34 Public Transport and Aerial Work Articles 267: exceptions - cost sharing and 268: exceptions - recovery of direct costs make specific references to direct costs

Article 265: exceptions - flying displays makes specific reference to the recovery of "direct costs of the flight and a contribution to the annual costs of the aircraft"

So by implication as the highlighted words in A265 do not appear in Articles 267 or 268, annual costs are not part of costs that can be shared on a private flight.

But like so much legalese, perhaps still open to interpretation.

[BackPacker]

But do the FAA/CAA really care if somebody who owns a plane, gets reimbursed a share of his indirect costs too? As long as the total costs do not exceed, say, the wet rental fee of a comparable aircraft?

The only objective of this regulation is to prevent people from flying for free or for hire on a mere PPL. So as long as the pilot has to contribute *something* to the flight, the intent of the law has been met, AFAIC.

So I can't see the FAA/CAA making a big fuss over this. Heck, otherwise you could just incorporate your plane somehow, and rent the plane from that corporation. The net effect would be the same.

Quite apart from the fact that IME people don't advertise their rates or calculation methods. You fly with a few mates, you tell them what the flight is going to cost in total - they have no clue how that amount is calculated anyway - and calculate what an equal share is. But even if they wanted to, the FAA/CAA are not going to be able to track this, let alone prosecute somebody over it. It'll only surface when you start abusing this rule big time, or if an incident/accident happens and your little money-making scheme is discovered in the aftermath.

[SlipSlider]

It'll only surface when you start abusing this rule big time, or if an incident/accident happens and your little money-making scheme is discovered in the aftermath.

Precisely! ... and that's no different to many of the rules in aviation. So why take a pointless risk for the sake of a few £s?

[dublinpilot]

But generally what it comes down to is that you cannot advertise this, and that the pilot has to pay an equal share of the direct costs of the flight.

That is an assumption too far. The UK has cost sharing arrangements, but not every country has such provisions. Ireland for example has no such provision, and therefore there is no option to share costs on a PPL.

Spain may or may not have such provisions. Reference will have to be made to Spanish leglisation.

I agree with your later comments, that this will only come to light if it's being abused (or after a crash). Bringing a friend who you haven't ask for anything from but who insists on making a contribution isn't ever likely to raise any problems!

[GeeWhizz]

Bearing in mind I rent aeroplanes from a club, and UK rules again, here is my personal philosophy on the issue...

1) if I have spare seats I offer them up with nil cost share. I offer them to other club members, technicians, FISO/ATC, whoever. I'm still going to fly the trip anyway so why not, and on my bank account it rests.

2) a friend asks for a specific trip and offers to pay all or part of the cost. I agree to do the trip when it's convenient for both of us, explaining the cost share rules and that a maximum of an equal share is all that they may contribute. Don't have to, but if they want me to fly on a day that suits them and for something they've asked for then it's usually fair to fund it equally. An example of this is flying a mate to an airfield to take their 9th removed cousin on a local flight over the family estate. Providing the local flight costs less than the sum of the transits, I'd suggest my mate only pays for the local flight time if they're happy.

3) if I'm asked to fly people to wherever they want to go but whenever I've got an aeroplane booked and a spare seat. Well it'd be rude not to accept lunch and a coffee! These crop up when the weather prevents flights in a certain direction but it's fine in another, usually last minute, and the task has been mentioned some time before. These are work colleagues mainly and others perhaps not so close as scenario 2 above.