Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Phasing out VOR's

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Phasing out VOR's

Old 11th Oct 2011, 21:59
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Phasing out VOR's

Excuse my apparent ignorance. A pilot friend of mine told me last night that VOR's are being phased out in two or three years. and here I am doing my IMC! Is this right, what will replace them , will LHR still stack over LAM ( and therefore my house)?
Pass your message is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:03
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ansiao
Posts: 2,716
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Isn't it rather the NDB's that are being phased out?
Over here, we got a couple of new VOR's over the last decades (FLO was the latest, if memory serves), but only fewer and fewer NDB's (WW desactivated a year or two ago, BRUNO longer).
Jan Olieslagers is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:03
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I know en-route NDBs are phased out. Maybe your friend is confusing those with VORs?
BackPacker is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:06
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I kind of hope my friend is confused as I really enjoy VOR flying.
Pass your message is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:13
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: southeast UK
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Most of the VOR's in the UK are owned and operated by NATS. They are 1960's technology for which spare parts are no longer available and any repairs have to be constructed from scratch.

Advances in navigation have rendered many ground based facilities as unnecessary. NATS had planned to turn off the vast majority of UK VOR's by 2015 but that timescale appears to be slipping (as always happens with NATS target dates). But they will be withdrawn in the next several years.
Vino Collapso is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:17
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Consult...Aug%202009.pdf
mcgoo is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:31
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For some reason it just leaves me wondering how robust the gps system is in the event of a period of extreme solar activity and how the system would cope during a period of outage.

Inertial navigation and radar vectoring will presumably save the day but some ga pilots could be struggling.
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 22:45
  #8 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,031
Received 11 Likes on 4 Posts
I went to a lecture the other day by an American designer of GNSS approaches who admitted they'd had problems in the USA with GPS jammers around major airports that passed close to major roads. Many american truckers are using GPS jammers to stop themselves being tracked.

I just looked on eBay - well under 20 quid for a GPS jammer from Hong Kong !

The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.


So, me, I like the option of ILS, VOR and even NDB approaches. The more options, the more chance that something hasn't been mucked about by some arsehole who doesn't care about anybody else so long as he can avoid his truck being tracked. (Or does care, and wants to cause trouble!).

G

N.B. The IMC also qualifies you to fly GNSS approaches using a panel mounted GPS. They're becoming more common in the UK and are almost universal in North America. Yes, I know you can't use your IMC in North America.
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 00:42
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.
I'd love to see a technical explanation of how this can be done together with some evidence that such a thing can actually work. It is not straightforward to jam spread spectrum transmissions.
Whopity is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 01:27
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
See this
GPS jamming: No jam tomorrow | The Economist
Gomrath is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 01:43
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ventura, California
Age: 64
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I miss the Four Course Range. That continuous tone was so soothing....

Low-frequency radio range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In my previous life....
thcrozier is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 08:38
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
See this
GPS jamming: No jam tomorrow | The Economist
I said a technical explanation, not a load of inaccurate journalistic hype. It is easy to knock out or desensitise a GPS receiver within a few feet of you by simply making the active antenna switch off. Jamming the "system" and more distant receivers is a totally different issue, which is why the military keep trying! The "weak" GPS transmitters are actually 16 times more powerful than the average satellite TV transmitter.
Whopity is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 09:29
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I had put a diagram up of the circuit, maybe a bit silly.

Just a simple google search will pull up a raft of hits on designs. They are also linked in to jamming mobile phones.

They are good for about 1000ft on a 45mm antenna. I doubt it would have the same effect on an aircraft because the hull would be shielding the aircraft antenna. But low down or with a hill next to the approach it could get you I suppose. If they could get line of sight to the top of the aircraft.

There used to be one on the Isle of White in the solent that used to sometimes kick in but it never really affected aircraft on approach as we were on vectors by that point. I presumed it was someone yacht racing in the solent trying to stuff up other racers and not anyone out trying to get aircraft.
mad_jock is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 09:35
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What next ?

The NDB's are disappearing and we are soon to see the same happening to the VOR's but it seems to me that the future is bleak for GA with IFR navigation all being done by GPS.

Some might say that with the European GPS system we have two systems available however both are easy to attack and a ground based navigation system is required so as most ILS systems have a DME attached it would seem like a good idea to do as the airlines have and mix DME data into the navigation plot. Most modern FMC system have this GPS, DME mix ( the B737 NG has five DME's three of them permanently attached to the FMC).

It would seem to me that the answer is for someone to make a DME/GPS interface that can feed the multi DME position into the aircrafts GPS unit, the pilot would navigate in exactly the same way as when using a GPS the only difference being that the position of the aircraft is determined by a mix of GPS & or DME data. The loss of GPS or DME data would not effect the navigation in any way.

OH !! It slipped my mind such a unit was available to the GA pilot but we were all to obsessed with the new and cheap GPS units to see the advantages and robustness of the multi-sensor navigation system, NARCO remember them? Made a thing called the STARNAV it had within the box GPS, VOR & ILS but also connected to DME and used a mix of GPS, VOR & DME to fix the aircrafts position and you could also feed a remote LORAN into the mix!

It would seem to me to be time to revisit the NARCO STARNAV concept to provide a more robust GA navigation system, it should not be to hard to do, I would think that a remote double DME unit could feed position data into the curent crop of GPS units via the data ports and most of us would not even know it would be fitted!
A and C is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 10:14
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
But we already have a sparse scattering of VORs? Take an IFR flight over Europe and how many existing intersections /waypoints sit on top of a VOR?
I can well remember flying a 1991 Citation 2 with glass from Nice to gatwick! the screens went black. It took a few hundred miles before we managed to get everything up and running.
I was given direct to a VOR some 200 nm away missing out scores of VOR less intersections.
I cannot see a time where VOR/DME will go completely especially in terminal areas but we already have a situation where they are more sparse.

Pace
Pace is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 10:44
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I was given direct to a VOR some 200 nm away
Did you actually receive that VOR from 200nm?
IO540 is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 11:44
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not quite but soon after Amazing how far you pick up indications at FL370

Pace
Pace is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 11:54
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I reckon you would have to be above 280 to get anything. using 1.25x sqr(alt difference)

well outside the DOC though.

Must of been fun though an hour on standby instruments I have only had the screens go black after we had finished the star on vectors.
mad_jock is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 12:05
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The sqr() formula fails for long distances because the omnidirectional pattern square law attenuation takes over the earth's surface curvature as the dominating factor.

I don't think you will pick up a VOR at 200nm, with the flag not showing, on a properly calibrated VOR receiver.

Same with DME.

I have asked old airline pilots how they used to do it, pre-RNAV. They used to fly headings. It worked because it is kind of hard to miss Spain when flying say 190 (or whatever it is) from the UK Then they would pick up a VOR somewhere... But you can't do that anymore. Any apparent loss of precision nav today, and ATC are onto you.

There are now of the shelf inertial nav (fibre optic gyro) products which are directly usable with any moving map device that has an NMEA input, but I cannot see anything appearing for less than 20k, and that is a "portable" unit. A certified unit would be a lot more.
IO540 is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2011, 12:14
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
10540

Practically you will take a heading and wait for the thing to come in then rectify the course but we were given a direct to the VOR which was 200 NM away after explaining the black screen problem.
It must have been about 170 NM from memory when the thing started coming alive.
I cannot remember precisely as I was throttling the first officer at the time who had caused the problem not fun at night loosing the screens especially with all the STARS into Gatwick ahead.

Pace
Pace is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.