PPL application rejected
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PPL application rejected
Having passed my skills test recently, I applied for my PPL with all the usual documentation, log book etc. After a rather long day at work today I returned home to a Fed-ex package from the CAA.
Excellent I thought, my license has arrived.
How utterly despondant I now feel to find that the package did not contain my license, it did however contain my log book, ID and a letter from the CAA stating that my application has been rejected on the basis that the FE's priviliges expired 6 or so weeks prior to me undertaking my skills test, and he was therefore not authorised to examine me.
I am now unsure where this leaves me, and I face stewing over it all weekend until I can make contact with the CAA and the FE on Monday morning.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening before, and does this mean I am going to have to go through skills test with all associated expenses all over again?
Any re-assuring comments would be greatly appreciated right now!
Excellent I thought, my license has arrived.
How utterly despondant I now feel to find that the package did not contain my license, it did however contain my log book, ID and a letter from the CAA stating that my application has been rejected on the basis that the FE's priviliges expired 6 or so weeks prior to me undertaking my skills test, and he was therefore not authorised to examine me.
I am now unsure where this leaves me, and I face stewing over it all weekend until I can make contact with the CAA and the FE on Monday morning.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening before, and does this mean I am going to have to go through skills test with all associated expenses all over again?
Any re-assuring comments would be greatly appreciated right now!
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This kind of thing has happened "around the place", and various people ended up with invalid licenses or ratings which they had to re-do, sometimes a year or more later when it came to light, but I have not yet heard of a case at a straight UK PPL flying school.
You are obviously entitled to a total refund of all expenses connected with re-doing the flight test.
It is especially bad because it is hard to imagine a UK FE not knowing when his FE privileges expire. In the other cases I know about it was 99.9% certain that the person concerned was fully aware he could not do testing.
You are obviously entitled to a total refund of all expenses connected with re-doing the flight test.
It is especially bad because it is hard to imagine a UK FE not knowing when his FE privileges expire. In the other cases I know about it was 99.9% certain that the person concerned was fully aware he could not do testing.
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Bloody disgrace ! Your expected to keep your papers in order so you would expect a F/E to do the same , he or the club should pay up for a re sit ! Surely the club must keep tabs on there examiners to see if there in date for insurance purpose's
Gutted for you
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I would advise thus...
Speak directly to the owner of club/school first thing Monday morning and appraise him/her of the situation. Have the CAA letter to hand. Politely make your point that you expect the club/school to meet all the costs of the retake and reapplication, whatever they may be. Be polite but forceful...do not accept any negotation or waffle. When the postion is agreed, get it in writing on company paper.
If the outfit is decent there will be no dispute...just embarrassment (on their part) an apology, and a sincere desire to put things right.
And, if the outfit is found wanting, just point out the readers of Pprune will enjoy reading the details.
As you are in England the small claims court will easily recover any costs they do not make good.
Speak directly to the owner of club/school first thing Monday morning and appraise him/her of the situation. Have the CAA letter to hand. Politely make your point that you expect the club/school to meet all the costs of the retake and reapplication, whatever they may be. Be polite but forceful...do not accept any negotation or waffle. When the postion is agreed, get it in writing on company paper.
If the outfit is decent there will be no dispute...just embarrassment (on their part) an apology, and a sincere desire to put things right.
And, if the outfit is found wanting, just point out the readers of Pprune will enjoy reading the details.
As you are in England the small claims court will easily recover any costs they do not make good.
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That sucks. In America, Licensure is an administrative excursion, subject to waiver and hearing, and appeal.
I have heard of an examiner's license being "bridged", and work accomplished outside the time of expiry can be honored. Worth a try.
Good Luck.
I have heard of an examiner's license being "bridged", and work accomplished outside the time of expiry can be honored. Worth a try.
Good Luck.
.
Regrettably, how can they ?
If we accept that a regulatory authority has to exist at all, then even the Campaign Against Aviation has to follow their own rules; if they allow unauthorised examiners, however competent at 'handling the hardware' they may be, to conduct flight tests, then what is the point of their very existence ? ( many will debate that, I know ! )
If you read accident reports to the last word, there is usually - almost a first - clause that " the crew licences were inspected and found to be in order" in other words if a 20,000 hours pilot-in-command of a transport aircraft had a crash because the engine fell off over the threshold due to no fault of his own, or the engine stopped because of ice in the fuel even, if the co-pilots' licence - who wasn't even handling - was proved to be so much as one minute out of date - that is the prime cause of the accident, everyone else, including the insurance companies, can all go home. End of story.
You think I'm joking.
One of my early mentors impressed on me that far from thinking about how I would handle an abnormal event, my first thoughts must always be what I would tell the subsequent Court of Inquiry. Sadly true.
The fault here lies with the FE, or his employer, and they must make reparations.
Commiserations and Best of Luck, whatever the outcome there is no recompense for your waste of time and effort.
......I hope they will all see sense on this.
If we accept that a regulatory authority has to exist at all, then even the Campaign Against Aviation has to follow their own rules; if they allow unauthorised examiners, however competent at 'handling the hardware' they may be, to conduct flight tests, then what is the point of their very existence ? ( many will debate that, I know ! )
If you read accident reports to the last word, there is usually - almost a first - clause that " the crew licences were inspected and found to be in order" in other words if a 20,000 hours pilot-in-command of a transport aircraft had a crash because the engine fell off over the threshold due to no fault of his own, or the engine stopped because of ice in the fuel even, if the co-pilots' licence - who wasn't even handling - was proved to be so much as one minute out of date - that is the prime cause of the accident, everyone else, including the insurance companies, can all go home. End of story.
You think I'm joking.
One of my early mentors impressed on me that far from thinking about how I would handle an abnormal event, my first thoughts must always be what I would tell the subsequent Court of Inquiry. Sadly true.
The fault here lies with the FE, or his employer, and they must make reparations.
Commiserations and Best of Luck, whatever the outcome there is no recompense for your waste of time and effort.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 7th Oct 2011 at 22:04.
I would advise thus...
Speak directly to the owner of club/school first thing Monday morning and appraise him/her of the situation. Have the CAA letter to hand. Politely make your point that you expect the club/school to meet all the costs of the retake and reapplication, whatever they may be. Be polite but forceful...do not accept any negotation or waffle. When the postion is agreed, get it in writing on company paper.
If the outfit is decent there will be no dispute...just embarrassment (on their part) an apology, and a sincere desire to put things right.
And, if the outfit is found wanting, just point out the readers of Pprune will enjoy reading the details.
As you are in England the small claims court will easily recover any costs they do not make good.
Speak directly to the owner of club/school first thing Monday morning and appraise him/her of the situation. Have the CAA letter to hand. Politely make your point that you expect the club/school to meet all the costs of the retake and reapplication, whatever they may be. Be polite but forceful...do not accept any negotation or waffle. When the postion is agreed, get it in writing on company paper.
If the outfit is decent there will be no dispute...just embarrassment (on their part) an apology, and a sincere desire to put things right.
And, if the outfit is found wanting, just point out the readers of Pprune will enjoy reading the details.
As you are in England the small claims court will easily recover any costs they do not make good.
I have come across a similar case - a CRM instructor who failed his re-rate which was based upon an assessed course he was given. CAA required the members of that course to re-sit, and the CRM instructor had to go off and requalify. An utter embuggerance for all concerned but eventually rectified.
You'll certainly have to re-do your test, and are legally and morally entitled to your money back. The exam fees should be easy, the aircraft costs may be a bit harder since you still got logged time and still burned fuel, but personally I'd recommend digging your heels in about that as well -albeit very politely. Asking for the club to pay for the resit, including the aircraft time, as suggested above, is an elegant solution to this.
G
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All endorsements require the expiration date of the examiner, check your logbook, and see that your CFI doesn't include it each flight. Recompense for each oversight, imo.
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Whatever you do, first make sure that the situation is indeed as described in the CAA letter. Both the FE and the people at the CAA are human and make mistakes. It may also be a simple case of the FE having properly extended his authorization, but the paperwork stating this getting lost en route to the CAA. Or something simple like that. In my experience FIs and FEs don't normally let their licenses and authorizations lapse by accident, but continue teaching and examining on them.
So something (embarassing?) happened, certainly, but do not make it worse for yourself by going in with guns blazing. Figure out what truly happened before making demands.
So something (embarassing?) happened, certainly, but do not make it worse for yourself by going in with guns blazing. Figure out what truly happened before making demands.
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What a nightmare, I feel really sorry for you! Is it not always impressed upon US as the STUDENT to keep our paperwork bang up todate and that the PIC should check ALL paperwork before a flight??? Whenever I do my Skills test, I may jsut check that all the examiner's paperwork is in order. He may think i'm barking but...
We have had issues over club aircraft paperwork found to be wanting. So I suppse everyonie can make a mistake, but when it comes down to someones Skills test and the issue of a PPL, I would have thought it was even more imperative that all paperwork was thoroughly checked before the flight.
Well, good luck with your quest for justice, and even better luck with your next skills test.
We have had issues over club aircraft paperwork found to be wanting. So I suppse everyonie can make a mistake, but when it comes down to someones Skills test and the issue of a PPL, I would have thought it was even more imperative that all paperwork was thoroughly checked before the flight.
Well, good luck with your quest for justice, and even better luck with your next skills test.
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...and if you paid by credit card then you may have a way to claim the amount paid back via the card if the goods promised were not delivered.
Good luck, I hope the school do the decent thing and that all you have to do is the test again.
Good luck, I hope the school do the decent thing and that all you have to do is the test again.
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The OP wrote this a few weeks ago:
In fairness to other students, you ought to at least make others at Halfpenny Green aware of what the CAA have told you, and do so right away.
I wonder if you now see the £180 as a more realistic figure considering the extra work involved in finding your guy was (allegedly) out of date, rather than just issuing a licence.
I suspect that in the lawyer friendly state of California, you'd be swamped with offers to sue the "examiner" for punitive damages due to the distress and mental anguish of needing to sit your test again.
My examiner was a thoroughly decent guy, who I am sure would have failed me if he found I could not fly, navigate and communicate safely.
I suppose the other comfort you should take into your skills test is that your instructer does know your abilities (or lack of!) better than you do, so if he has put you forward then you are almost certainly good enough to pass.
So if you are about to do your skills test, remember your examiner wants you to pass and your instructer already knows your good enough, so so should you.
On a slighty different note, is it me being tight or do the CAA seem to want to extort money out of us at every turn? £180.00 just to issue a PPL, I cant imagine the cost of admin plus printing the license plus reasonable profit would be a fraction of that in reality.
I suppose the other comfort you should take into your skills test is that your instructer does know your abilities (or lack of!) better than you do, so if he has put you forward then you are almost certainly good enough to pass.
So if you are about to do your skills test, remember your examiner wants you to pass and your instructer already knows your good enough, so so should you.
On a slighty different note, is it me being tight or do the CAA seem to want to extort money out of us at every turn? £180.00 just to issue a PPL, I cant imagine the cost of admin plus printing the license plus reasonable profit would be a fraction of that in reality.
In fairness to other students, you ought to at least make others at Halfpenny Green aware of what the CAA have told you, and do so right away.
I wonder if you now see the £180 as a more realistic figure considering the extra work involved in finding your guy was (allegedly) out of date, rather than just issuing a licence.
I suspect that in the lawyer friendly state of California, you'd be swamped with offers to sue the "examiner" for punitive damages due to the distress and mental anguish of needing to sit your test again.
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I'm not sure where the CAA are supposed to have failed in what we have been told so far. I am sure the examiner knew when his rating would expire, although he may well have forgotten.
The CAA would have issued him a document, with the rating expiry date clearly marked on it. What can the CAA do if he continues to operate beyond that date?
The CAA would have issued him a document, with the rating expiry date clearly marked on it. What can the CAA do if he continues to operate beyond that date?
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Silvaire1 wrote:
Like it says in the Andrex advert, "The job's not complete until the paperwork is all done."
I'm not sure that Jail is an option, but I suppose someone will come along shortly with details on the level of offence involved and which court would see the prosecution.
Aside from aviation, there is a matter of fraud, in the commercial exchange here. Potentially fraud by the school/club as well as misrepresentation by the FE.
Where the FE has (allegedly) received pecuniary advantage for a service he is not entitled to provide, and in signing the licence application and test certificate, he has "uttered a false instrument" to the CAA and the Student.
A good defence would be "mens rea" as obviously he would know he'd get caught and would therefore not do this willingly. Ignorance is no excuse, but it would mitigate allegations of intentional fraud.
C'mon Flying Lawyer, tell us how it really is.
Again, do they have reason to believe the student did not meet the standard required?
I'm not sure that Jail is an option, but I suppose someone will come along shortly with details on the level of offence involved and which court would see the prosecution.
Aside from aviation, there is a matter of fraud, in the commercial exchange here. Potentially fraud by the school/club as well as misrepresentation by the FE.
Where the FE has (allegedly) received pecuniary advantage for a service he is not entitled to provide, and in signing the licence application and test certificate, he has "uttered a false instrument" to the CAA and the Student.
A good defence would be "mens rea" as obviously he would know he'd get caught and would therefore not do this willingly. Ignorance is no excuse, but it would mitigate allegations of intentional fraud.
C'mon Flying Lawyer, tell us how it really is.
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Legally:
I think that for a "deception" case to stand up you need to prove that the examiner knew, and was aware of the wrongdoing. As I already said, this was never going to go un-noticed at Gatwick so who would believe it was intentional?
He "ought to have known" will probably not be enough to convict him/her or fraud.
Morally:
This examiner needs to take up another line of work. I know that's a loss to GA of an examiner, and what are the chances of re-offending?
But the shame value alone would make a reasonable man's eyes water.
Should the club / school need to reimburse flight time and instructor (& CAA) fees for all students over a 12 week period, than bankruptcy must be looming and only the lawyers and accountants will get anything.
I think that for a "deception" case to stand up you need to prove that the examiner knew, and was aware of the wrongdoing. As I already said, this was never going to go un-noticed at Gatwick so who would believe it was intentional?
He "ought to have known" will probably not be enough to convict him/her or fraud.
Morally:
This examiner needs to take up another line of work. I know that's a loss to GA of an examiner, and what are the chances of re-offending?
But the shame value alone would make a reasonable man's eyes water.
Should the club / school need to reimburse flight time and instructor (& CAA) fees for all students over a 12 week period, than bankruptcy must be looming and only the lawyers and accountants will get anything.
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Again, do they have reason to believe the student did not meet the standard required?
Claverley, do as has been suggested and go out there and get the test passed then come back here and let us all know.
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Huge can of worms!
DX, I don't think it matters what the technicalities are. In black and white, the examiner (allegedly) was not authorised to conduct the tests.
In that case, I wonder if he was current as an instructor/pilot.
In that case, I wonder if he was current as an instructor/pilot.