Checklists
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Checklists
I'll keep this brief and simple.
My brother (engineer) and I (PPL student pilot, 25hrs in) were discussing the use of checklists while flying.
The way my instructor has implied (not "told" exactly) is to have as much of the checklist mnemonics committed to memory so there's less reliance on them.
Upon speaking to said brother, he believes checklists should be out, used and referred to on every task, to avoid any doubt that I had missed something.
I would welcome thoughts and comments from instructors, students or whoever has any clarification on this matter.
Thanks in advance
Stuart
My brother (engineer) and I (PPL student pilot, 25hrs in) were discussing the use of checklists while flying.
The way my instructor has implied (not "told" exactly) is to have as much of the checklist mnemonics committed to memory so there's less reliance on them.
Upon speaking to said brother, he believes checklists should be out, used and referred to on every task, to avoid any doubt that I had missed something.
I would welcome thoughts and comments from instructors, students or whoever has any clarification on this matter.
Thanks in advance
Stuart
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For me it's paper on the ground, memory in the air. I don't think that's uncommon. Sky gods of course will come along and tell you that they use memory exclusively.
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For me it's paper on the ground, memory in the air.
- Initially you will work from checklists exclusively, but during your training some things (like downwind checks) will be drilled into you to be done from memory. In the circuit, just before landing, is not the time to spend large amounts of time with your head in the cockpit.
- Emergency drills in the air should be from memory. But there's usually also a list of abnormal procedure drills. As these are less urgent you can do them from a checklist, even in the air.
- When flying a very familiar aircraft I do the ground stuff from memory too. But that's not a change that happened overnight. To build up confidence that I would not be forgetting things I sat in the aircraft, emulating a complete flight and trying to work on a logical "flow" of things to check and do. I then referred back to the checklist to see if I hadn't missed anything. Only after a few iterations and a few of these flights was I confident enough not to need the checklist at all. And still this only applies to one specific aircraft that I fly a lot. All other types I still use the checklist.
G
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Throughout the RAF EFT syllabus use of checklists (FRCs) in the cockpit is not allowed (within reason). Doesn't look good if you don't know your checks by the 5th or 6th sortie.
However throughout my PPL training I was taught with a heavy reliance on checklists. Maybe due to the wide range of people and ages doing doing training civvy flying clubs probably think its safer to make sure everyone uses the lists to reduce the chance of missing something important.
However throughout my PPL training I was taught with a heavy reliance on checklists. Maybe due to the wide range of people and ages doing doing training civvy flying clubs probably think its safer to make sure everyone uses the lists to reduce the chance of missing something important.
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I was actively discouraged from memorising my start/power/pre-take off checks during my training (Winter 09/10). I still ALWAYS use a checklist, running my finger down the list so I am less likely to miss something. If I get distracted halfway through, I always go back up this list to something I am absolutely certain I have already done and continue from there.
I then don't use the checklist again until after landing i.e. the rest of my flight checks are done from memory. However, the checklist is always easily 'grabbable' in an emergency so that although I have memorised my emergency actions, I can use it to check I've remembered everything, assuming there is time of course - bearing in mind 'Aviate, Navigate, Communicate'.
However, I find that pilots who have been flying much longer than myself were taught to memorise their pre-take off checks/vital actions. The training seems to have changed in this regard over the years....
I then don't use the checklist again until after landing i.e. the rest of my flight checks are done from memory. However, the checklist is always easily 'grabbable' in an emergency so that although I have memorised my emergency actions, I can use it to check I've remembered everything, assuming there is time of course - bearing in mind 'Aviate, Navigate, Communicate'.
However, I find that pilots who have been flying much longer than myself were taught to memorise their pre-take off checks/vital actions. The training seems to have changed in this regard over the years....
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The training seems to have changed in this regard over the years....
If you train at a school that mainly caters to pilots that eventually want to fly commercially, you'll see lots of emphasis on actually using a checklist. Because that's what you do in a B737.
On the other hand, if you train at a school that mainly caters to pilots that want to fly for fun, on very simple aircraft, you'll see more emphasis on working from memory.
The PA28 checklist I got when I trained for my PPL/SEP, at a school which provides mostly professional training, ran for two densely packed A4 pages. But I'm also training for my glider license and I have yet to see a written checklist there. Everything is done from memory.
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I always use the checklist on the ground (and I still miss stuff, did a whole flight without the strobes on the other day, didn't realise until I came to switch them off......, which makes me think I should always carefully use a checklist and run my finger down each item. It's easy to get distracted by a passenger or radio call.) I fly four different types as well so I probably couldn't commit everything to memory even if I wanted to. Memory in the air although some non emergency failure stuff other than engine failure/fire I would have to get the checklist out.
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But I'm also training for my glider license and I have yet to see a written checklist there. Everything is done from memory.
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If you train at a school that mainly caters to pilots that eventually want to fly commercially, you'll see lots of emphasis on actually using a checklist. Because that's what you do in a B737.
Upon speaking to said brother, he believes checklists should be out, used and referred to on every task, to avoid any doubt that I had missed something.
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Understand the difference between a "checklist," and "procedures."
Checklists are exactly what their name implies - lists read to check that critical actions have been accomplished. The purpose of a checklist is not to prompt actions, although in the course of one's initial flight training they do serve as an 'aid memoir.' Normal checklist items are not procedures.
Imagine for example the after take off checklist; One should not rely on a checklist to prompt for gear and flap retraction, or any number of actions that are required in more complex aircraft types during the initial climb. These are actions that must be committed to memory, but which are later "checked" by reference to a checklist at a time when pilot workload permits, and when it is convenient and safe to do so.
"Procedures" are items that are included in the abnormal or emergency section of a checklist document. In the case of the emergency procedures a pilot is required to commit initial response actions to memory. These are immediate response items, like those called for in the case of an engine fire, or sudden cabin decompression. Once these initial memory items/actions have been accomplished the "procedures" contained in the emergency section of the checklist are then used as instructions (procedures) which should be followed, in the appropriate order.
Crankshaft....you obviously type at a greater speed than me, and I have only just noticed your post!
Checklists are exactly what their name implies - lists read to check that critical actions have been accomplished. The purpose of a checklist is not to prompt actions, although in the course of one's initial flight training they do serve as an 'aid memoir.' Normal checklist items are not procedures.
Imagine for example the after take off checklist; One should not rely on a checklist to prompt for gear and flap retraction, or any number of actions that are required in more complex aircraft types during the initial climb. These are actions that must be committed to memory, but which are later "checked" by reference to a checklist at a time when pilot workload permits, and when it is convenient and safe to do so.
"Procedures" are items that are included in the abnormal or emergency section of a checklist document. In the case of the emergency procedures a pilot is required to commit initial response actions to memory. These are immediate response items, like those called for in the case of an engine fire, or sudden cabin decompression. Once these initial memory items/actions have been accomplished the "procedures" contained in the emergency section of the checklist are then used as instructions (procedures) which should be followed, in the appropriate order.
Crankshaft....you obviously type at a greater speed than me, and I have only just noticed your post!
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Traditionally the UK used to teach “vital actions” which were learned, but the US used checklists (talking simple light aircraft only). I have flown with a number of people who religiously followed a 20 + list of down wind checks in a busy circuit and hardly looked out at all. That might be ok for a big complex aircraft in CAS, but at an A/G airfield it is B***** dangerous. There is no checklist for my aircraft and I have no intention of creating one. I do regularly practice emergency drills etc and debrief on the ground afterwards, but most SEP’s are very simple machines and a simple left to right check is very easy.
Rod1
(I tend to mostly fly my own aircraft which I built so have a good understanding of)
Rod1
(I tend to mostly fly my own aircraft which I built so have a good understanding of)
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An example given during the discussion was if I had perhaps forgotten to deploy the gear and damaged an aircraft / facility as a result.
Would I be questioned if I had my checklist out or would I be questioned "did you - to your knowledge deploy the gear? yes or no?"
If the judge at such an inquest is expecting me to say "I had my checklist out, was reading from it, deployed the gear in accordance with it, then it failed" they might not be impressed if I said "No m'lord I was working from memory and must have neglected to do so"?
Just adding a spanner in the works but the answers so far are very interesting. Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
Stuart
Would I be questioned if I had my checklist out or would I be questioned "did you - to your knowledge deploy the gear? yes or no?"
If the judge at such an inquest is expecting me to say "I had my checklist out, was reading from it, deployed the gear in accordance with it, then it failed" they might not be impressed if I said "No m'lord I was working from memory and must have neglected to do so"?
Just adding a spanner in the works but the answers so far are very interesting. Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
Stuart
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Most of the available check lists are rubbish and the rest are worse, most encourage a way of starting the engine that is setting all the pieces of an intake fire in place each time you start the engine. The shut down is as bad with most check lists giving no heed to the instructions issued by the engine manufacturer.
I have said enough on these forums about instructors teaching checklists to be used as do lists and I can't for the life of me understand how some SEP checklists are longer than the check list that Boeing publish for the 737.
I have said enough on these forums about instructors teaching checklists to be used as do lists and I can't for the life of me understand how some SEP checklists are longer than the check list that Boeing publish for the 737.
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I was during my US conversion taught very heavily to rely on checklists, which I rebelled against at times. I wouldn't mind it if the checklists were brief, but they're almost always overworked. So can the acronyms be. Thankfully most instructors agree that plowing through a 20 item checklist with nonsense in the traffic pattern whilst trying to spot 5 other aircraft isn't in the best interest of safety. But some were sticklers for it.
I use it for all my starts, runups, ground checks and after that I do it from memory. That said, I tend to forget things on shutdown as I then often skip the list. Last time I came back from lunch the radios were still on and the bloody master switch. Oops... So there certainly is a case to be made for them!
I use it for all my starts, runups, ground checks and after that I do it from memory. That said, I tend to forget things on shutdown as I then often skip the list. Last time I came back from lunch the radios were still on and the bloody master switch. Oops... So there certainly is a case to be made for them!
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 22nd Sep 2011 at 17:23.
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In a simple light aircraft you should not need a check list. Check lists are for multi-crew challenge/response environments, not memory replacements for the lone SEP pilot.
I've seen some PPLs sitting blocking a taxyway, or the fuel pumps, engine running, while they leaf through pages of bumph that would do justice to a Space Shuttle, not a simple PA28.
For heavens sakes SEPs are simple! Keep it that way! Do you outside and inside checks using the aeroplane; for instance, for internals do a left to right run around the cockpit checking what needs to be checked (not much in a simple aeroplane!).
KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid!
I've seen some PPLs sitting blocking a taxyway, or the fuel pumps, engine running, while they leaf through pages of bumph that would do justice to a Space Shuttle, not a simple PA28.
For heavens sakes SEPs are simple! Keep it that way! Do you outside and inside checks using the aeroplane; for instance, for internals do a left to right run around the cockpit checking what needs to be checked (not much in a simple aeroplane!).
KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid!
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This is fine, keeping the checklists really simple, for simple planes - as long as all you pilots remember that's what you asked for, when something stops unexpectedly, and you go bump, because you forgot something.
There is no requirement that "simple" aircraft be so common to each other that one list of steps, so simple that you can faultlessly remember them, fits all those planes. There can still be differences worthy of a checklist.
Add to that, modifications, or systems added by STC or avionics changes, which demand extra steps, which may have never entered your memory for later recall.
Also important to note, for slightly more advanced aircraft, the same steps might be presented in a different order, or with variations of event or other steps, depending upon circumstance. I spent 18 hours vetting the checklists, and other Flight Manual aspects for an OEM modification to a light twin known to most here. I took issue with many nuances in the checklists. These are certainly nuances that only the sharpest among us would remember without re-reading. These were certainly not checklists intended for memory.
So, checklist memorizers: You have the indication of an alternator failure in cruise flight, and confirm that indeed, the battery is no longer being charged. You're a while back from a suitable landing area, and otherwise have no need for an immediate landing. Do you extend the landing gear now, or wait 'till you're much more near the destination?
You're smart, and answer: "it depends...." What factors does it depend upon?
You have an engine failure with the fuel pump off. What do you do before you check for selection of a full(er) tank, and turn the fuel pump on? What might you need to open to do it?
I have an aircraft, which has a checklist item which requires that the pilot confirm that the wheels are up for landing. Would you want to do this as a checklist item, or just rely on memory?
Yes, the checklist for the Cessna 150 I have owned for 24 years has not left the seat pocket for... um... 24 years. Except that when I did my commercial flight test, I was told I better produce and use it, or I would be failed there and then.
When being PPC'd on the Caravan last week, I was given memory items to be able to recall, with no opportunity to look for a checklist, when drilled in flight. But, I would have failed the PPC, had I not referred to the checklist at the appropriate occasions.
Don't get in the habit of abandoning the checklist completely, another pilot with whom you fly one day is going to object, and you insurance company might not be keen either....
There is no requirement that "simple" aircraft be so common to each other that one list of steps, so simple that you can faultlessly remember them, fits all those planes. There can still be differences worthy of a checklist.
Add to that, modifications, or systems added by STC or avionics changes, which demand extra steps, which may have never entered your memory for later recall.
Also important to note, for slightly more advanced aircraft, the same steps might be presented in a different order, or with variations of event or other steps, depending upon circumstance. I spent 18 hours vetting the checklists, and other Flight Manual aspects for an OEM modification to a light twin known to most here. I took issue with many nuances in the checklists. These are certainly nuances that only the sharpest among us would remember without re-reading. These were certainly not checklists intended for memory.
So, checklist memorizers: You have the indication of an alternator failure in cruise flight, and confirm that indeed, the battery is no longer being charged. You're a while back from a suitable landing area, and otherwise have no need for an immediate landing. Do you extend the landing gear now, or wait 'till you're much more near the destination?
You're smart, and answer: "it depends...." What factors does it depend upon?
You have an engine failure with the fuel pump off. What do you do before you check for selection of a full(er) tank, and turn the fuel pump on? What might you need to open to do it?
I have an aircraft, which has a checklist item which requires that the pilot confirm that the wheels are up for landing. Would you want to do this as a checklist item, or just rely on memory?
Yes, the checklist for the Cessna 150 I have owned for 24 years has not left the seat pocket for... um... 24 years. Except that when I did my commercial flight test, I was told I better produce and use it, or I would be failed there and then.
When being PPC'd on the Caravan last week, I was given memory items to be able to recall, with no opportunity to look for a checklist, when drilled in flight. But, I would have failed the PPC, had I not referred to the checklist at the appropriate occasions.
Don't get in the habit of abandoning the checklist completely, another pilot with whom you fly one day is going to object, and you insurance company might not be keen either....
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Pilot DAR - what I said is for simple aeroplanes.
U/C up for forced landing? Of course! When I was flying the Yak52 I knew that. Try pulling out a checklist and reading it when the engine goes bang at 500 feet! You neeed to know your aeroplane!
If I flew with any pilot in the Chipmunk who at any stage needed to refer to a check list, I'd watch him like a hawk, ring my insurance broker, and make a note not to fly with him again! They don't come much simpler than the Chippy (or C150, 172, PA38, 28 etc). If, after more than a few tens of P1 hours on these sort of simple types, you NEED to refer to a checklist, you need to ask yourself if you are really up to it. A checklist on these simple types is a band aid covering a hole in a pilot's capability and knowledge of his aeroplane.
U/C up for forced landing? Of course! When I was flying the Yak52 I knew that. Try pulling out a checklist and reading it when the engine goes bang at 500 feet! You neeed to know your aeroplane!
If I flew with any pilot in the Chipmunk who at any stage needed to refer to a check list, I'd watch him like a hawk, ring my insurance broker, and make a note not to fly with him again! They don't come much simpler than the Chippy (or C150, 172, PA38, 28 etc). If, after more than a few tens of P1 hours on these sort of simple types, you NEED to refer to a checklist, you need to ask yourself if you are really up to it. A checklist on these simple types is a band aid covering a hole in a pilot's capability and knowledge of his aeroplane.
Renting Pa28s, C150/2s, C172s in the US, from 6 different FBOs, I've found their checklists MUCH shorter than the 5 UK schools I've used, for the same aircraft. ( A card, as opposed to a booklet.) And the UK lists had to be bought - the US lists were in the cockpit.
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U/C up for forced landing? Of course!
It's so easy to "get into the groove" with a plane, and abandon the checklist. I used to fly a Cessna 207, which I modified for research work. The plane fit like a glove, it's a simple (albeit heavy simple) plane. Yes, there were occasions where the use of the paper checklist (which I had written for the modified aircraft) slipped my mind - I knew the plane, it was simple. Then one day, after taxiing to a final stop on the ramp, I saw some people approaching, though not dangerously close. Being conscientious, I shut down, without using the checklist. I wiped out a whole bunch of research data, because the electrical power changeover was not done before shutdown. I was able to explain away the need for safety with people on the apron, but in truth, I muffed it, because I did not use the paper checklist, for this simple airplane (it was just one more switch!).
The Caravan is pretty simple too, and I was temped to not use the checklist in certain phases of flight last week, because it was so simple, but being new to the plane, I just did not want to risk a flameout, or some very simple error ('cause it is a simple plane) which I would have to explain later. I think I mentioned somewhere else, that I'm a "fraidy cat" about having to admit and explain my mistakes, so I try not to have to.
I got 172 home today without the checklist (okay, I don't know if it has one outside the Flight Manual), but I have a bit more familiarity than some of the newer pilots here. I would still be responsible for a burned out fuel pump though, 'cause I forgot to turn it off airborne, and it ran for the whole flight. Oh, and I forgot the cowl flaps too, until top of descent.
Yeah, this is a "do as I say, but not as I do" subject. I say you should always use the paper checklist, but I do expect that every pilot who does not, with the consent of the aircraft owner, can recite the contents of the checklist for the type they are flying, without missing anything. When I did my Caravan PPC, the pilot checking me could not find the checklist for me, and she had flown the plane in 30 minutes earlier.....