Crosswind Flaps
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
Pace, i don't think that's what he meant. What I understood from the post is simple: After the plane has touched down (at whatever speed) the landing is not over. You should still apply proper control inputs until the aircraft has slowed down to well below minimum flying speed.
Or, arguably, until the plane is back in the hangar with the hangar doors closed.
Or, arguably, until the plane is back in the hangar with the hangar doors closed.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
The most important thing is to keep flying the aircraft until it's below minimum flying speed. If the x/w is of variable strength, that means that during the hold-off you are continuously altering the bank angle and required rudder to keep the aligned with the runway and not drifting off to one side or another. At the same time you need to keep flying the aircraft, holding off for a reasonably smooth touchdown at close to normal landing speed. It's a busy time. It's tempting to try and put the aircraft down at the earliest opportunity. Don't. Once the aircraft has touched down, it's tempting to lower the nose, as it's been trained into a lot of pilots that "that's what you do in a crosswind". Don't. Keep the controls positioned to let the nose come down when it's ready. Keep the aileron and rudder inputs as they would need to be for handling the crosswind, as though you were still airborne.
I totally agree with what you say but am slightly concerned with some of the above?
Firstly one pilots impression of strong winds might not be anothers.
I have landed at Gatwick with winds 40 gusting 65 kts and the wind 20-30 degrees off.
In very high winds the biggest danger is shear and huge variations on the ASI
OK that was in a Citation! The 737 landing behind was one foot over planting his one wing into the runway.
Not the sort of conditions you would want to be holding ANYTHING OFF.
I have had similar sort of conditions at brize, Manchester and Dundee.
Ok not the sort of conditions that Joe Bloggs is likely to be flying around in a 172 but even that is possible!
There are occasions in light aircraft where you will want to plant it down, Where you wont want full flap if for nothing else than you dont want drag should you need instant speed.
I am purely highlighting the point that landing has nothing to do with stall and on occasions you may want to land quite a lot above the stall.
If I have misread the above my apologies to the Author.
Pace
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
From: England
I get the distinct impression that some of of the contributors to this thread have never landed in strong gusty crosswind.
If you were to taxy down a runway at 10 knots with a strong crosswind with no tailwind component would you use full into wind aileron in a high wing aircraft.
Would you prefer to taxy down the same runway with flaps up
Would you taxy down the same runway with the CC slightly forward of neutral.
If the answer to all the above is yes, as it should be, why would you want to land at 50 kts and leave flaps down of keep the nosewheel off for longer than necessary or not use full into wind aileron?
If your not convinced try your technique on a wet runway with a 30 knot crosswind.
If you were to taxy down a runway at 10 knots with a strong crosswind with no tailwind component would you use full into wind aileron in a high wing aircraft.
Would you prefer to taxy down the same runway with flaps up
Would you taxy down the same runway with the CC slightly forward of neutral.
If the answer to all the above is yes, as it should be, why would you want to land at 50 kts and leave flaps down of keep the nosewheel off for longer than necessary or not use full into wind aileron?
If your not convinced try your technique on a wet runway with a 30 knot crosswind.
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
When flying a nosewheel Cessna, or most other nosewheel types, unless directed otherwise:
Always, and for landing and takeoff as well.
No, I usually taxi with some flaps extended in a 100 series Cessna, as it improves the downwash over the stabilizer, and makes the elevator more effective than no flaps. I prefer the more effective elevator, with which to keep the nose light. When I'm taxiing, it is not the final stage of a landing, for which I would have used full flaps.
Never, unless the conditions were a wailing tailwind. Were the wind that strong, and I was flying a 100 series Cessna, I would be really thinking hard about how badly I needed to fly (or taxi) at all.
Simply preference, based upon experience. In Cessnas, the rather expensive nosewheel assembly, and in 172's in particular, the attachment to the firewall, is not quite as robust, or durable as some might wish. I have repaired quite a few of them (struts and firewalls). If the nosewheel is being held off, or light, it is very much less likely to be damaged. If conditions (meaning not a really strong tailwind) permit, I will certainly taxi a long backtrack holding the nosewheel completely off the runway. Agreed, that a strong or gusty wind will make this impossible, but you can still hold it light. When you start operating off rough runways, keeping weight off the nosewheel becomes even more vital. When operating off loose runways, propeller care makes it vital.
If nothing else is varied during taxiing a 172, simply holding the controls all the way back will bring the nose an inch or two higher. That's an extra inch or two of propeller clearance, and oleo stroke available.
I once had to taxi a 172 from the hangar, to the runway about 500 feet away, through a field which had been lightly plowed up (by mistake - forgot the plane was in the hangar). Two heavy guys in the back for ballast, 15 degrees of flap, lots of power. The nosewheel came right off, and I picked my way through at a walking pace, on the mains only. The plane did not seem to mind a bit.
Other than for a strong tailwind, the intensity of the wind would not otherwise affect my taxiing technique, or choice of flap position much. I will admit that I have never landed any aircraft in a direct 30 knot crosswind. I don't believe any aircraft I have flown has a demonstrated crosswind capability approaching that. That would be an aircraft which the design standards might suggest had a 150 knot stalling speed, and that's way out of my league!
If you were to taxy down a runway at 10 knots with a strong crosswind with no tailwind component would you use full into wind aileron in a high wing aircraft.
Would you prefer to taxy down the same runway with flaps up
Would you taxy down the same runway with the CC slightly forward of neutral.
why would you want to land at 50 kts and leave flaps down of keep the nosewheel off for longer than necessary
If nothing else is varied during taxiing a 172, simply holding the controls all the way back will bring the nose an inch or two higher. That's an extra inch or two of propeller clearance, and oleo stroke available.
I once had to taxi a 172 from the hangar, to the runway about 500 feet away, through a field which had been lightly plowed up (by mistake - forgot the plane was in the hangar). Two heavy guys in the back for ballast, 15 degrees of flap, lots of power. The nosewheel came right off, and I picked my way through at a walking pace, on the mains only. The plane did not seem to mind a bit.
Other than for a strong tailwind, the intensity of the wind would not otherwise affect my taxiing technique, or choice of flap position much. I will admit that I have never landed any aircraft in a direct 30 knot crosswind. I don't believe any aircraft I have flown has a demonstrated crosswind capability approaching that. That would be an aircraft which the design standards might suggest had a 150 knot stalling speed, and that's way out of my league!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Hah it always worries me starting a thread here:
A) It exposes my lack of pilot skill
B) Runs away into long diatribes of technique and counter technique, which of course i love to read.
Fuji is right it was a light xwind and i was surprised i had trouble too, i think i am new to the type, new to tarmac and was having a not so hot day in the cockpit,.. perfect storm.
I realised what was going on, i did a full stop and gave the Aero club back the keys... rather than push it further, i will get more practice and some more instruction on type.
I also don't have my terminology correct either it seems.... as far as crab vs sideslip.
Thanks as always for the useful advice.
KF_73
A) It exposes my lack of pilot skill
B) Runs away into long diatribes of technique and counter technique, which of course i love to read.
Fuji is right it was a light xwind and i was surprised i had trouble too, i think i am new to the type, new to tarmac and was having a not so hot day in the cockpit,.. perfect storm.
I realised what was going on, i did a full stop and gave the Aero club back the keys... rather than push it further, i will get more practice and some more instruction on type.
I also don't have my terminology correct either it seems.... as far as crab vs sideslip.
Thanks as always for the useful advice.
KF_73
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Other than for a strong tailwind, the intensity of the wind would not otherwise affect my taxiing technique, or choice of flap position much. I will admit that I have never landed any aircraft in a direct 30 knot crosswind. I don't believe any aircraft I have flown has a demonstrated crosswind capability approaching that. That would be an aircraft which the design standards might suggest had a 150 knot stalling speed, and that's way out of my league!
Demonstrated is no more or less than its description and does not refer to the limit which could be twice the demonstrated.
I have over 2000 hrs in Seneca fives and have landed the aircraft at over twice its demonstrated limit with 90 degrees crosswind.
Reading your posts which I always love I am sure you are equally or even more capable than I
Pace
Pace
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: Belgium
The special 172
Yes the 172 is special.
A C-150 has 40° of flap.
The next version: the C-152 has "only" 30° of flaps.
Back to the C-172 that has 40°. And big doors they are.
As mentioned before, and I fully agree, every landing is a FULL FLAP landing.
But the C-172 is special. This baby has too much flap, and never got the C-150 to C-152 FLAP angle REDUCTION.
What would I do?
If confident and pretty sure of the landing? Land FULL Flap; All 40° of them.
If bumpy, uncertain, (not every day is the same, better safe then sorry) I would fly short finals at 30°, ready for a go around if needed. (as per C-152)
Short finals? NOT in crab. Certainly, and in this situation CERTAINLY NOT in crab.
From 1000ft, I would go in the wind Wing down, and opposite rudder.
If you can hold a plane on runway centerline, at Approach speed, Wing down, opposite rudder? You can salefy land.
If you run out of rudder? Go someplace else to land. => VERY simple.
So you come to short final, on centerline, Full flaps, on speed, wing down, opposite rudder, very stable position;
All what is left to do is flare and land on the upwind wheel.
MAINTAIN the X-wind aileron and rudder, let the second wheel touch, and let the nose come down when she wants to.
If the nose is still UP, and you run out of rudder? You CAN gently use a (one) brake to amintain direction.
it will help the steering, help the nose come down, and slow you down.
Be G E N T L E .
During roll out; MAINTAIN aileron input into wind, and use nosewheel and rudder action to stay on centerline.
NEVER stop flying the plane till at the hangar.
A C-150 has 40° of flap.
The next version: the C-152 has "only" 30° of flaps.
Back to the C-172 that has 40°. And big doors they are.
As mentioned before, and I fully agree, every landing is a FULL FLAP landing.
But the C-172 is special. This baby has too much flap, and never got the C-150 to C-152 FLAP angle REDUCTION.
What would I do?
If confident and pretty sure of the landing? Land FULL Flap; All 40° of them.
If bumpy, uncertain, (not every day is the same, better safe then sorry) I would fly short finals at 30°, ready for a go around if needed. (as per C-152)
Short finals? NOT in crab. Certainly, and in this situation CERTAINLY NOT in crab.
From 1000ft, I would go in the wind Wing down, and opposite rudder.
If you can hold a plane on runway centerline, at Approach speed, Wing down, opposite rudder? You can salefy land.
If you run out of rudder? Go someplace else to land. => VERY simple.
So you come to short final, on centerline, Full flaps, on speed, wing down, opposite rudder, very stable position;
All what is left to do is flare and land on the upwind wheel.
MAINTAIN the X-wind aileron and rudder, let the second wheel touch, and let the nose come down when she wants to.
If the nose is still UP, and you run out of rudder? You CAN gently use a (one) brake to amintain direction.
it will help the steering, help the nose come down, and slow you down.
Be G E N T L E .
During roll out; MAINTAIN aileron input into wind, and use nosewheel and rudder action to stay on centerline.
NEVER stop flying the plane till at the hangar.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,694
Likes: 15
From: Wellington,NZ
Originally Posted by Pace
Quote:
The most important thing is to keep flying the aircraft until it's below minimum flying speed.
Why would you want to be flying an aircraft above the runway waiting for the speed to drop below its minimum flying speed in strong, gusty winds with shear?
The most important thing is to keep flying the aircraft until it's below minimum flying speed.
Why would you want to be flying an aircraft above the runway waiting for the speed to drop below its minimum flying speed in strong, gusty winds with shear?
Originally Posted by BackPacker
Pace, i don't think that's what he meant. What I understood from the post is simple: After the plane has touched down (at whatever speed) the landing is not over. You should still apply proper control inputs until the aircraft has slowed down to well below minimum flying speed.
Sorry for the confusion. That is exactly what I meant.
Originally Posted by Pace
I totally agree with what you say but am slightly concerned with some of the above?
Firstly one pilots impression of strong winds might not be anothers.
I have landed at Gatwick with winds 40 gusting 65 kts and the wind 20-30 degrees off.
In very high winds the biggest danger is shear and huge variations on the ASI
OK that was in a Citation! The 737 landing behind was one foot over planting his one wing into the runway.
Not the sort of conditions you would want to be holding ANYTHING OFF.
I have had similar sort of conditions at brize, Manchester and Dundee.
Ok not the sort of conditions that Joe Bloggs is likely to be flying around in a 172 but even that is possible!
There are occasions in light aircraft where you will want to plant it down, Where you wont want full flap if for nothing else than you dont want drag should you need instant speed.
I am purely highlighting the point that landing has nothing to do with stall and on occasions you may want to land quite a lot above the stall.
If I have misread the above my apologies to the Author.
Firstly one pilots impression of strong winds might not be anothers.
I have landed at Gatwick with winds 40 gusting 65 kts and the wind 20-30 degrees off.
In very high winds the biggest danger is shear and huge variations on the ASI
OK that was in a Citation! The 737 landing behind was one foot over planting his one wing into the runway.
Not the sort of conditions you would want to be holding ANYTHING OFF.
I have had similar sort of conditions at brize, Manchester and Dundee.
Ok not the sort of conditions that Joe Bloggs is likely to be flying around in a 172 but even that is possible!
There are occasions in light aircraft where you will want to plant it down, Where you wont want full flap if for nothing else than you dont want drag should you need instant speed.
I am purely highlighting the point that landing has nothing to do with stall and on occasions you may want to land quite a lot above the stall.
If I have misread the above my apologies to the Author.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Just on Flaps in the AC i was flying, it has a reduction in the flap setting to a MAX of 30 deg travel, i think this is due to a mod needed to increase the MAUW with the introduction of the long range tanks.???
This is ZK-KAS for those NZ posters
On the actual flap selector it actually looks more like 25 Deg.
I revised my Cross wind calculation to a blistering 9knts xwind.
Did i mention i've only just broken 100 hours??
This is ZK-KAS for those NZ posters
On the actual flap selector it actually looks more like 25 Deg.
I revised my Cross wind calculation to a blistering 9knts xwind.
Did i mention i've only just broken 100 hours??
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
Reading your posts which I always love I am sure you are equally or even more capable than I
You and I, and others here, are capable enough, that we should be inspiring newer pilots to carefully and safely challenge their own skills.
Did i mention i've only just broken 100 hours??
it has a reduction in the flap setting to a MAX of 30 deg travel
As explained to me today by my very experienced test pilot mentor, the reduced flaps setting for crosswinds is mostly a factor of crab angle required. The faster you fly forward, in the same speed crosswind, the lesser the required crab angle will be required. Less flap out = faster, so less crabbing required. If you are comfortable with the greater crab angle, go right ahead. This is why (as Pace correctly points out) the "demonstrate" crosswind capability is not limiting. There is a minimum requirements to be demonstrated of 0.2 Vs, but what's the incentive for manufacturers to publish higher (or actual) crosswind speeds in their flight manuals. Someone will try it, go off the runway, and, well... you know the rest of the sad legal story.
Though I have never flown a Seneca, or Citation, I am very willing to believe that they can handle these high crosswinds. The 100 series Cessnas are a little less capable. My personal record in the 150 is 37 gusting to 43 knots, 30 degrees off the nose. It was a search, or I would not have tried it at all. It worked out okay, though I could not land back at home, and had to land elsewhere, and park in the lee of a hangar, before I could shut down and stop flying!
A truly startling experience is to arrive to the destination, when flying an Ercoupe with no rudder pedals, and find that you have a 12 knot direct crosswind. Somehowe the plane handles it just fine, though I to this day have not figured out how!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
depending on the aircraft I prefer part flap for strong wind flying. The last thing I would want would be to have to abandon a landing in wind shear and turbulence.
Hanging on the prop 15 feet up with every bit of drag hanging out and a low powered engine isnt my idea of fun.
I would tend to use the flap setting on a particular aircraft which gives most lift for least drag especially in light, draggy, low powered aircraft where the poor engine needs as much help from not having drag in the event of windshear and downdraghts.
There was an arguement of not taking full flap till assured of landing. In strong winds and turbulence with a large cross factor and shear you never really are assured of landing.
At the end of the day what works for one doesnt for another and every situation is different.
Remember too that with a strong headwind component your landing distance will be much shorter so going for minimal landing speed is not so critical but being near the stall in shear/ lift and crosswind is!!!
Pilot Dar
Totally agree but I also dont think students should only have a blinkered view! I love to watch the Red Bull Air Racing and see what the pilots and aircraft are capable of. That doesnt mean I am going to emulate them 
If your ever over in the UK a Citation Ride is on as would love to meet you as I have done with quite a few on the forums now.
Pace
Hanging on the prop 15 feet up with every bit of drag hanging out and a low powered engine isnt my idea of fun.
I would tend to use the flap setting on a particular aircraft which gives most lift for least drag especially in light, draggy, low powered aircraft where the poor engine needs as much help from not having drag in the event of windshear and downdraghts.
There was an arguement of not taking full flap till assured of landing. In strong winds and turbulence with a large cross factor and shear you never really are assured of landing.
At the end of the day what works for one doesnt for another and every situation is different.
Remember too that with a strong headwind component your landing distance will be much shorter so going for minimal landing speed is not so critical but being near the stall in shear/ lift and crosswind is!!!
Pilot Dar
You and I, and others here, are capable enough, that we should be inspiring newer pilots to carefully and safely challenge their own skills.
If your ever over in the UK a Citation Ride is on as would love to meet you as I have done with quite a few on the forums now.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st September 2011 at 08:46.
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
That doesnt mean I am going to emulate them
I'll be looking you up before too long....
