Big Crash at Reno
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I've never seen an aircraft accident like this. Incredible footage on The UK Daily Mail website, taken from a podcast.
A very sad outcome even that day with pilot killed but the a/c (which broke up in midair) hit nothing on the ground but the desert floor...
Sad day. Even sadder to read so much cr@p about pilot's age, etc from the usual armchair experts.
DK
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At these altitudes, no one wants to burp and eat dirt, so let's set the trim for a NOSE UP bias, and 'need push' to stay low.
If the tab then departs, the NOSE will drop, BIG time. So pilot will counter with an emphatic NOSE UP.
If the tab then departs, the NOSE will drop, BIG time. So pilot will counter with an emphatic NOSE UP.
Last edited by Lyman; 17th Sep 2011 at 22:27.
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According to the AP:
Note: that podcast quote reportedly is from June, so there were several months in which to do additional testing. I don't want to imply that he hadn't thoroughly tested the modifications.
"In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons - the back edge of the main wings used to control balance - to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches.
"The goal was to make the plane more aerodynamic so it goes faster without a bigger engine.
"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," he said.
Whether those changes may have had any bearing upon what happened is a question I'll leave to those more knowledgeable."The goal was to make the plane more aerodynamic so it goes faster without a bigger engine.
"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," he said.
Note: that podcast quote reportedly is from June, so there were several months in which to do additional testing. I don't want to imply that he hadn't thoroughly tested the modifications.
Last edited by Passenger 389; 17th Sep 2011 at 22:22. Reason: correct any misimpression
There was a previous incident a few years ago when during fast level flight, the trim tab of another P-51 (Voodoo Chile) broke off and the aircraft pulled into a 10G pitch-up. The pilot at the time was Bob Hannah. He immediately lost conciousness, and woke up having gained almost 9000 feet.
I think it's highly likely that the outcome of this event would have been the same had the pilot been 74 or 24.
Sad day for aviation and air racing.
Hats off as well to the civvie owned static 'vintage' Huey crew for immediately putting the a/c to use for casevac.
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Very sad news.
I met Jimmy at Vero Beach in 1989/1990. What a down to earth, fantastic guy and brilliant pilot.
So many of these warbird guys have their heads up their own A...s, but Jimmy was a true exception.
Don't let his age fool you! I would fly with Jimmy tomorrow if I could, rather than some pilots I know half his age.
Sincere condolences to all affected
I met Jimmy at Vero Beach in 1989/1990. What a down to earth, fantastic guy and brilliant pilot.
So many of these warbird guys have their heads up their own A...s, but Jimmy was a true exception.
Don't let his age fool you! I would fly with Jimmy tomorrow if I could, rather than some pilots I know half his age.
Sincere condolences to all affected
Age...
Initial reports are of a call from the aircraft indicating a problem, and then a very high g manoeuvre occurring. It is hard to reconcile this with any age factor. The photo of the tail section shows the inner tab separating and forcing the remaining tab to deflect (servo) the elevator TE up.
Whether 18 or 80, a sudden high g onset without being prepared will put most people's lights out. The pitch rate of the aircraft in the pull up, pull down, and the final start of the pull out is indicative of very high g loads being sustained.
Reno is spectacular, and not too many people go there without being aware that it historically can be dangerous for the participants, and the public are proximate to the event... at 500mph, a loss of control can cover a lot of ground, and "proximate" becomes down in it. It is a tragedy, but not completely unexpected. The surprise is that mixing high speed aircraft, low level ops and spectators is as incident free as it is generally.
Whether 18 or 80, a sudden high g onset without being prepared will put most people's lights out. The pitch rate of the aircraft in the pull up, pull down, and the final start of the pull out is indicative of very high g loads being sustained.
Reno is spectacular, and not too many people go there without being aware that it historically can be dangerous for the participants, and the public are proximate to the event... at 500mph, a loss of control can cover a lot of ground, and "proximate" becomes down in it. It is a tragedy, but not completely unexpected. The surprise is that mixing high speed aircraft, low level ops and spectators is as incident free as it is generally.
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Thanks BackPacker. That makes a lot of sense to me. I wrote the post while trying to figure out how separation of that tab, if it turns out to be related to the cause, would cause a sudden pitch up. If anything, it seems it might cause a pitch down.
I've never actually been to the RAR, so don't know what % of the time you are in level flight as opposed to some degree of left turn. If it's mostly left turn, I'd think you would trim it for the turn and muscle it toward the ground for any short period of straight and level flight.
http://www.visitrenotahoe.com/images...urse_photo.gif
Looks to me like they are in some degree of left turn almost all the way around.
P51D "Voodoo" - Qualifying monday noon, Reno Airraces 2011 - YouTube
I've never actually been to the RAR, so don't know what % of the time you are in level flight as opposed to some degree of left turn. If it's mostly left turn, I'd think you would trim it for the turn and muscle it toward the ground for any short period of straight and level flight.
http://www.visitrenotahoe.com/images...urse_photo.gif
Looks to me like they are in some degree of left turn almost all the way around.
P51D "Voodoo" - Qualifying monday noon, Reno Airraces 2011 - YouTube
Last edited by thcrozier; 18th Sep 2011 at 00:42. Reason: link
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Any problem with the trim or elevator at high speed could cause this type of crash, so it looks pretty obvious to me that this was the cause. The tail wheel seems to back that up. I'd also have thought that a sudden unexpected 10g climb might not only put your lights out but also break your neck whether 20 or 80 (in my limited aerobatic experience of not exceeding 6g). It is a testament that the wings didn't come off.
How many G would be required to pop the tailwheel out?
How many G would be required to pop the tailwheel out?
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It may be salutary to the age knockers to remember that John Glenn flew on the Space Shuttle Discovery at the age of 77, and trips on the Shuttle weren't given away in cornflakes boxes, you had to earn your place. Still going strong at 90 years of age.
Condolences to the spectators and pilot's families.
Condolences to the spectators and pilot's families.
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Pure speculation, but here is a possible scenario, after all this is a rumour network...
Elevator trim tab failure at high speed causes extreme high 'g' pitch up, pilot blacks out, slumps forwards, 'g' causes tailwheel unlock, aircraft impacts at full power.
Elevator trim tab failure at high speed causes extreme high 'g' pitch up, pilot blacks out, slumps forwards, 'g' causes tailwheel unlock, aircraft impacts at full power.
This Mustang was extensively modified but still a Mustang with short wings. It had aerodynamic limits based on being a Mustang. I think he forgot that.
Interestingly it's been rebuilt four times, once after being gutted (for parts?) and twice more for previous crashes, in addition to the radiator removal and cooling system modification. Not a happy airplane.
-drl
deSitter
any chance you could translate this a little better
are you saying that the trim trab is secondary to a pilot induced condition?
Just how can you control where a plane crashes when it's out of control in an uncommanded over-the-top?. So it appears that it is possible to crash into a crowd.
100 percent agreed, and the TT failure was the result of a high-speed stall and buffeting. To say the pilot is to blame is an understatement. The one thing you can't do at an airshow is crash into the crowd. That's just not allowed.
are you saying that the trim trab is secondary to a pilot induced condition?
Just how can you control where a plane crashes when it's out of control in an uncommanded over-the-top?. So it appears that it is possible to crash into a crowd.
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The Mustang was always known to be subject to high-speed stall - separation of airflow from going too fast. This would cause buffeting in the elevator (an early warning) and the evidence here is that the elevator was torn apart. He seems to have been way wide in the turn and was probably pushing it to get in the race. Really, really stupid.
-drl
-drl
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Originally Posted by deSitter
He seems to have been way wide in the turn and was probably pushing it to get in the race. Really, really stupid.
Agreed, Zorin_75!
deSitter, your comments are without evidence and are complete nonsense.
NX79111 was an Experimental Category aircraft; it is plausible that aerodynamic stress loads on the tailplane and pitch control system may have been modified as a result of the structural chnages made to the aircraft. But that will be for the NTSB to ascertain.
deSitter, your comments are without evidence and are complete nonsense.
NX79111 was an Experimental Category aircraft; it is plausible that aerodynamic stress loads on the tailplane and pitch control system may have been modified as a result of the structural chnages made to the aircraft. But that will be for the NTSB to ascertain.
The Original Whirly
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"74 years old, you gotta be joking. I've flown with 70 year olds and they need spoon feeding."
And I've flown with 18 year olds who should go back to wearing nappies.
I've also flown with both 18 year olds and 75 year olds who are first rate.
Any of you age-bashers ever heard these two little words...INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES? Or do they have too many syllables for you?
And I've flown with 18 year olds who should go back to wearing nappies.
I've also flown with both 18 year olds and 75 year olds who are first rate.
Any of you age-bashers ever heard these two little words...INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES? Or do they have too many syllables for you?
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Quote:
'Does anyone know if pilots are required to wear G suits for this class of race? I hear there is a G suit specifically designed for racing named G-race. I believe it is used at Red Bull air race.'
Youtube cockpit video of a similar Mustang at Reno, speed and 'g' are shown top left, sustained 'g' is around 2 to 3.5 so I would have thought tolerable for a fit pilot without g-suit.
'Does anyone know if pilots are required to wear G suits for this class of race? I hear there is a G suit specifically designed for racing named G-race. I believe it is used at Red Bull air race.'
Youtube cockpit video of a similar Mustang at Reno, speed and 'g' are shown top left, sustained 'g' is around 2 to 3.5 so I would have thought tolerable for a fit pilot without g-suit.
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Someone wrote this on another forum. I think it is a very sensible view.
Having a fair degree of experience in aerobatics, I'll offer the following:
For control failure to be the problem, it had to be both elevator and aileron failures. The gradual pitch up and following barrel roll was actually fairly leisurely and allowed plenty of time at the top to either push to sustain inverted flight or roll back to upright. The pilot did neither.
The pilot is not visible in the posted photos. This is possible only if he has slumped hard forward or down and to the side. Given the restraining harnesses, both would be difficult.
Again from the posted videos, there is no evidence of a sudden pitch up, spin, snap roll, or any other heavy gee-load inducing maneuver. There is a noticeable pitch up, but it is not a "snap" type pitch. It was simply the beginning of a barrel roll that ended vertical in front of the stands. I saw no evidence of last-minute maneuvering, either.
Having said all that, video can be extremely deceiving. I was scored on several maneuvers that should have been zeroed because the video did not show what about half of the judges saw. The only thing less reliable than video is the human eye.
Let the NTSB do their work. Conjecture is painful for those closest to the event
For control failure to be the problem, it had to be both elevator and aileron failures. The gradual pitch up and following barrel roll was actually fairly leisurely and allowed plenty of time at the top to either push to sustain inverted flight or roll back to upright. The pilot did neither.
The pilot is not visible in the posted photos. This is possible only if he has slumped hard forward or down and to the side. Given the restraining harnesses, both would be difficult.
Again from the posted videos, there is no evidence of a sudden pitch up, spin, snap roll, or any other heavy gee-load inducing maneuver. There is a noticeable pitch up, but it is not a "snap" type pitch. It was simply the beginning of a barrel roll that ended vertical in front of the stands. I saw no evidence of last-minute maneuvering, either.
Having said all that, video can be extremely deceiving. I was scored on several maneuvers that should have been zeroed because the video did not show what about half of the judges saw. The only thing less reliable than video is the human eye.
Let the NTSB do their work. Conjecture is painful for those closest to the event
Moderator
100 percent agreed, and the TT failure was the result of a high-speed stall and buffeting. To say the pilot is to blame is an understatement.
In general, a high speed stall (among other factors) could cause buffet, which is quite different from flutter. That buffet could, and should act upon the leading edge of the H stab to give the pilot a warning of impending stall. It is unlikely in the extreme that the buffet would affect the elevator trim tab in any meaningful way.
Flutter of a trim tab could occur from a combination of circumstances, which would generally include none to only light aerodynamic forces on the tab and high speed, and a combination of other factors, which could be design, construction, or maintenance (but not piloting) related. A larger aerodynamic load (like high G - piloting) on the tab would tend to prevent flutter.
A high speed stall will occur when a combination of increasing G and decreasing speed causes the critical angle of attack to be exceeded, and the wing stalls. A stalling wing is associated with rapid deceleration, which is the best thing to stop flutter. To get the increasing G, a lot of pitch control force is being applied. This control force input is likely to also assure that trim tab flutter does not begin.
High G and/or high speed stall will not cause flutter, or buffet which would harmfully affect a trim tab.
Flutter of a trim tab, caused either by poor flutter resistance at high speed (design), or failure (construction/maintenance) could very certainly cause a loss of control and high G, which the pilot could not overcome (so not piloting).
Having no more information than the photos and videos I have seen here, it certainly does not appear to me that a high speed stall occurred, though there does appear to have been a trim tab position problem.