Big Crash at Reno
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The unlimited class winner last year (I believe, it could have been a year or 2 earlier) averaged 482 mph over the 6 lap race. I believe they fly about 450 feet AGL and are highly modified to obtain these speeds, but are at their limits. A failure at the speeds they fly of course can tax anybodies abilities. Jimmy Leeward could handle them with the best. My prayers to his family and all the people at the races who were injured physically and mentally by this horrific crash.
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BTW: Regarding to the statement of racing a P51 at 500 kts at low level... I was under the impression that the P-51 was only capable of those speeds in a dive, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was the case.
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I hope all the people criticising the age of the pilot feel a bit silly now, I have done a lot of flying with a pilot 70+ years of age, they should try it ! You would learn a lot of old school flying skills as well as etiquette .
"My heart goes out to all in such a tragic accident"
Austerwobbler
"My heart goes out to all in such a tragic accident"
Austerwobbler
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Low level, high speed. Any problems in that situation tend to be a very serious ones.
These unlimited machines are absolute rocket ships and are right on the limit much of the time. With the picture of the trim stab coming off. A picture is starting to form about what *might* have happened. The pilot could have been 10 or 100 and I don't think the outcome would have been different.
With that in mind, can we forget about the pilots age in subsequent comments please.
These unlimited machines are absolute rocket ships and are right on the limit much of the time. With the picture of the trim stab coming off. A picture is starting to form about what *might* have happened. The pilot could have been 10 or 100 and I don't think the outcome would have been different.
With that in mind, can we forget about the pilots age in subsequent comments please.
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Possibly age is relevant in the ability of a very mature human being to absorb the sudden unexpected increase in g caused by the suggested trim tab failure?
I was accustomed to flying aircraft where moderate to high g was a normal part of the day. But even with a g suit it was tiring, and I was in my 20's then. I am 50 now and would not want to put myself under that sort of stress now, let alone at 74!
May turn out not be related to this horrible accident. But I don't think you would find many people who are not surprised at the age of this man, given the stress of the sport of air racing.
O'Neill.
I was accustomed to flying aircraft where moderate to high g was a normal part of the day. But even with a g suit it was tiring, and I was in my 20's then. I am 50 now and would not want to put myself under that sort of stress now, let alone at 74!
May turn out not be related to this horrible accident. But I don't think you would find many people who are not surprised at the age of this man, given the stress of the sport of air racing.
O'Neill.
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How about quitting the squabbling chaps, and getting back to the topic?
Skittles' analysis gives what seems to be a very plausible scenario for how this incredibly tragic accident occurred.
Despite this accident having probably nothing to do with the age of the pilot, I agree that there may be reasons to look into the physiology involved in racing at the ages some of these pilots are. However, any restriction should be based on empirical evidence and possibly individualised testing to establish personal limits.
To those who wish to clamp down on speculation; belt up and stop reading a forum named 'Professional Pilots' RUMOUR network'. Discussing the probable causes of tragedies helps us to prevent future ones. Don't even get me started on waiting for accident reports to be produced. Discussing safety is an insult to nobody.
Skittles' analysis gives what seems to be a very plausible scenario for how this incredibly tragic accident occurred.
Despite this accident having probably nothing to do with the age of the pilot, I agree that there may be reasons to look into the physiology involved in racing at the ages some of these pilots are. However, any restriction should be based on empirical evidence and possibly individualised testing to establish personal limits.
To those who wish to clamp down on speculation; belt up and stop reading a forum named 'Professional Pilots' RUMOUR network'. Discussing the probable causes of tragedies helps us to prevent future ones. Don't even get me started on waiting for accident reports to be produced. Discussing safety is an insult to nobody.
Moderator
Uh oh, this thread is going downhill fast!
Age could be a factor, but could be a small factor. To be truthful, I very much doubt anyone will ever know that for sure. Stirring that pot here, with so few facts, is totally pointless. I do know that age is a major factor in some amazing training I have had over the years, and as recently as last month, from a super 75 year old private pilot, who's been flying longer than I have been alive. I'm not amazed by his age, I'm envious! I hope I fly as he does, when I reach age...
It would appear that there is reason to suspect a control system failure. It is certain that a serious control system failure could cause a crash in any aircraft. Those who seek out the report in time, will read whatever answers the NTSB comes up with.
For myself (while occupying left seat, in case that somehow matters), when I am required to flight test to dive speed, I check elevator trim tab freeplay and security very carefully. I have had two rebuilt before I would test the aircraft, because I was not satisfied the freeplay was acceptable. What I have seen so far in this really unhappy event assures me that I should keep doing that!
I struggle to imagine anyone here having a personal agenda on this topic!?!. This is a place where people exchange ideas and opinions for entertainment, and perhaps some mind expanding. Don't worry SAS, a few posters seem to have some growing up to do, I know you won't be phased.... I don't recall seeing your posts here for a while, welcome back, if that's appropriate. I look forward to more of your thoughts....
So, if wise people reading here, were to actually try to learn something from the very preliminary FACTS known, and be better pilots in their own right, what would we do?
I'll be paying even more attention to trim tabs, particularly on faster aircraft I fly.... (Oh, and I'm going to act my age!)
Age could be a factor, but could be a small factor. To be truthful, I very much doubt anyone will ever know that for sure. Stirring that pot here, with so few facts, is totally pointless. I do know that age is a major factor in some amazing training I have had over the years, and as recently as last month, from a super 75 year old private pilot, who's been flying longer than I have been alive. I'm not amazed by his age, I'm envious! I hope I fly as he does, when I reach age...
It would appear that there is reason to suspect a control system failure. It is certain that a serious control system failure could cause a crash in any aircraft. Those who seek out the report in time, will read whatever answers the NTSB comes up with.
For myself (while occupying left seat, in case that somehow matters), when I am required to flight test to dive speed, I check elevator trim tab freeplay and security very carefully. I have had two rebuilt before I would test the aircraft, because I was not satisfied the freeplay was acceptable. What I have seen so far in this really unhappy event assures me that I should keep doing that!
I struggle to imagine anyone here having a personal agenda on this topic!?!. This is a place where people exchange ideas and opinions for entertainment, and perhaps some mind expanding. Don't worry SAS, a few posters seem to have some growing up to do, I know you won't be phased.... I don't recall seeing your posts here for a while, welcome back, if that's appropriate. I look forward to more of your thoughts....
So, if wise people reading here, were to actually try to learn something from the very preliminary FACTS known, and be better pilots in their own right, what would we do?
I'll be paying even more attention to trim tabs, particularly on faster aircraft I fly.... (Oh, and I'm going to act my age!)
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Hiya Pilot DAR, Too busy at work I'm afraid to do much posting on here! Hopefully that'll change soon, but until then I have content myself with the odd fly by posting!
I can't add anything to your post, because it's spot on.
I can't add anything to your post, because it's spot on.
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Respect people PLEASE.
Speculation as to cause is fine and may even be healthy.
But if it reads as blame and/or advocates all sorts of restrictions based on sweeping generalisations and a little knowledge, it does nobody any good - and it may hurt those directly connected to this accident.
The range of pilot abilities in this world is vast and not always related to pilot age.
Speculation as to cause is fine and may even be healthy.
But if it reads as blame and/or advocates all sorts of restrictions based on sweeping generalisations and a little knowledge, it does nobody any good - and it may hurt those directly connected to this accident.
The range of pilot abilities in this world is vast and not always related to pilot age.
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In the photo of the plane diving from the left, it looks like not just the trim tab, but the entire left elevator and part of the horizontal stab is gone.
The cooling boiler appears to vent on the left as well. What was the impact of steam flowing over the left side at speed?
The cooling boiler appears to vent on the left as well. What was the impact of steam flowing over the left side at speed?
Last edited by BreezyDC; 17th Sep 2011 at 17:14. Reason: Mention of steam vent position
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Trim Settings over full course.
Anyone know what elevator trim settings are used in the unlimited class as you make your way around the full course? I'd think it would be pretty nose up during the turns probably transitioning to nose down as you roll the wings level toward level. Just curious.
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keezy44
I saw Hinton crash into the sage after engine failure (seizure) at low level. Initially he was announced as dead, but as we all know.... I think it was 1980. "RED BARON" with twin contra rotating Props.
If a racer is having problems, his first duty is to leave the circuit, with a max (if possible) climb. This is consistent with the photography, and the roll seemed gentle. If the climb was inadvertent, or unavoidable, well, things happen. Just to add, shoulder harness or no, without a helmet bracket (NHRA), pilot's neck broke likely immediately. The Pitch Up was unreal.
Informed consent is the drill. If you agree, you got no bitches coming if you croak. Allowing children, who cannot give consent to this, is another story.
No one gets to RENO by accident, but sometimes they leave because of one. I honor the cessation of the racing this year, who could fly after such a thing? But next year, I'll be back. Danger diminishes as the distance from show center increases.
I saw Hinton crash into the sage after engine failure (seizure) at low level. Initially he was announced as dead, but as we all know.... I think it was 1980. "RED BARON" with twin contra rotating Props.
If a racer is having problems, his first duty is to leave the circuit, with a max (if possible) climb. This is consistent with the photography, and the roll seemed gentle. If the climb was inadvertent, or unavoidable, well, things happen. Just to add, shoulder harness or no, without a helmet bracket (NHRA), pilot's neck broke likely immediately. The Pitch Up was unreal.
Informed consent is the drill. If you agree, you got no bitches coming if you croak. Allowing children, who cannot give consent to this, is another story.
No one gets to RENO by accident, but sometimes they leave because of one. I honor the cessation of the racing this year, who could fly after such a thing? But next year, I'll be back. Danger diminishes as the distance from show center increases.
Last edited by Lyman; 17th Sep 2011 at 20:48.
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I would speculate that he was unconscious prior to impact, but at what point is uncertain. If that aircraft did in fact pitch up at 10g due to control failure, he was probably asleep almost instantly. In one of the pictures there is something visible in the front of the cockpit area, possibly his helmet, but in the side view nothing is visible...
RIP Jimmy Leeward, you died doing something you loved.
Condolences to family and friends.
RIP Jimmy Leeward, you died doing something you loved.
Condolences to family and friends.
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My condolences to all who have been affected by this tragedy.
No speculation here but I will add that when the same malfunction happened to Bob Hannah in Voodoo, he did not have his shoulder harness locked. When he regained conciousness at 9000-10000 feet, he was bent over at the waist and his face was planted against the floor of the cockpit. At the time, Bob was in his prime and in excellent shape as prior to air racing he made his living as a professional athlete racing motorcycles off road - and was US National Champion for a number of years.
An almost instantaneous application of 9-10g's is a game-changer for everyone. I don't think Jimmy ever saw the ground fill the windscreen.
No speculation here but I will add that when the same malfunction happened to Bob Hannah in Voodoo, he did not have his shoulder harness locked. When he regained conciousness at 9000-10000 feet, he was bent over at the waist and his face was planted against the floor of the cockpit. At the time, Bob was in his prime and in excellent shape as prior to air racing he made his living as a professional athlete racing motorcycles off road - and was US National Champion for a number of years.
An almost instantaneous application of 9-10g's is a game-changer for everyone. I don't think Jimmy ever saw the ground fill the windscreen.
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The death toll from the Reno, Nevada, air race plane crash has risen to nine people, Reno police said Saturday.
Seven people died on the tarmac, including the pilot, and two died in hospitals, police said.
More than 50 people were transported from the scene with injuries, officials said shortly after the crash Friday.
Seven people died on the tarmac, including the pilot, and two died in hospitals, police said.
More than 50 people were transported from the scene with injuries, officials said shortly after the crash Friday.
Old pilots.
ONLY because I'm an 'old' pilot did I find out that I had a problem - 'cos my age demanded an additional exercise ECG to renew my licence.
The problem was attended to and my licence re-issued, albeit with some restrictions - better than the alternative !
How many guys hurtling down the road towards you even know that they have a problem before they die and slam into you ?
Keep RENO to the facts as known.
On another site I've read a suggestion that the RENO accident was a deliberate Terrorist Attack. The "Darwin Awards" clearly aren't working.
ONLY because I'm an 'old' pilot did I find out that I had a problem - 'cos my age demanded an additional exercise ECG to renew my licence.
The problem was attended to and my licence re-issued, albeit with some restrictions - better than the alternative !
How many guys hurtling down the road towards you even know that they have a problem before they die and slam into you ?
Keep RENO to the facts as known.
On another site I've read a suggestion that the RENO accident was a deliberate Terrorist Attack. The "Darwin Awards" clearly aren't working.
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International Formula One rules
Does anyone know if pilots are required to wear G suits for this class of race? I hear there is a G suit specifically designed for racing named G-race. I believe it is used at Red Bull air race.
relevant info from IF1 technical rules:
relevant info from IF1 technical rules:
"You will be asked to demonstrate
a 6g load in flight, and perhaps
see 9+g in turbulence during
racing later."
Very sad day for all of aviation.
a 6g load in flight, and perhaps
see 9+g in turbulence during
racing later."
Last edited by BrooksPA-28; 18th Sep 2011 at 06:52. Reason: mistake in suit name
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Anyone know what elevator trim settings are used in the unlimited class as you make your way around the full course? I'd think it would be pretty nose up during the turns probably transitioning to nose down as you roll the wings level toward level. Just curious.
I would assume air racing is the same. You set the trim, probably for max power horizontal flight, before the race, and leave it there during the race.
What you might be confused with is that people on here are simply talking about a trimtab that apparently got loose. Now I'm not familiar with the P51 trim system but in a lot of aircraft that little tab is not used exclusively for trimming (in the speed stability sense) but also to create artificial stability into the tailplane. The aerodynamics and mechanics are a bit too complicated for now, but without such a tab you're not just lacking speed stability. You also lost all force feedback from the tailplane, which may lead to Pilot-Induced-Oscillations and even flutter. Both of which are not good news.
Even worse would be if the trimtab would detach partly, then bend over and start to act like an aerofoil on its own, forcing the tailplane against the stops all of a sudden. That would induce a massive pitch change.
Last edited by BackPacker; 17th Sep 2011 at 21:42.