Big Crash at Reno

[Pittsextra]

I'll leave that to the NTSB if you don't mind. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to draw the same conclusion as you, based on the data from the entry form.

This is idiotic. You sticking your head in the sand will not change the numbers that are clearly written on a variety of pieces of paper...

[Pilot DAR]

sticking your head in the sand

Or, perhaps, different people jump to conclusions at different speeds...

[Pittsextra]

still won't change the numbers

[BackPacker]

...and reconciling the numbers will not reverse the tragedy.

In fact, my personal opinion is that regardless of which numbers are actually true, the pilot had plenty experience in what he was doing. I honestly don't care whether that experience was 1000 hours or 2700 hours or some other number. It was not his inexperience in flying that caused the tragedy, but a mechanical defect.

Like DAR said, I'm very interested in the aerodynamics, flutter, oscillations and other factors that caused the trim tab to separate.

[Pittsextra]

and reconciling the numbers will not reverse the tragedy.

but might stop it happening again.

In fact, my personal opinion is that regardless of which numbers are actually true, the pilot had plenty experience in what he was doing. I honestly don't care whether that experience was 1000 hours or 2700 hours or some other number. It was not his inexperience in flying that caused the tragedy, but a mechanical defect.

And that is the point. Its already clear that there have been a variety of false statements in entry forms and its clear that none of the people running this machine have very much in the way of quantifying the testing which is a requirement to find such defects in an environment that shouldn't have killed a bunch of others.

Like DAR said, I'm very interested in the aerodynamics, flutter, oscillations and other factors that caused the trim tab to separate.

Having some wet dream over the technology of it all is only addressing half of the problem. Since Leeward took over this Mustang even his FAA documentation becomes a shambles.

Me neither. Reno is its own world to some degree, and will remain that way. Paraphrasing the advertisement "What happens in Reno, stays in Reno." Yes, it is the wild west. Precisely that, better for it, and intransigently so. Get used to it.

This just sums up the retarded view held by those that are aged 12.

Much the same as the Isle of Man for motorcycle racing, actually.

No its not because had he tried to enter the TT his entry would have been rejected as he would have been too old to hold a race licence.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Total time means S.F.A. as far as flying ability goes.

Age will have an effect on ones motor skills eventually......when will vary from individual to individual.

Personally I decided to retire a few weeks before I turned 70, as far as I know I was still fairly competent in my airplane handling skills when I decided to retire.

I did do some flying for pay since I retired but have now decided not to renew my pilots license medical so I won't be tempted to fly for money again.

Soooo.....this winter I will finish my sail plane license in California and then do recreational aerobatics in sail planes.....that is a lot less physically challenging than flying powered aerobatic airplanes and I don't need a medical to fly one.

My message is we should know when to limit our flying activities as we age.

P.S..:::::

I still do a in depth medical every year and my last one a couple of months ago found only one issue....I was low on vitamin D....

[Cows getting bigger]

The Wild West - does that mean we should all tak our rifles with us in case the Injuns ride over the horizon?

Let me get this right:

A highly modified aircraft with no significant airworthiness oversight. An EXPERIMENTAL sticker appears to suffice.

A pilot who appears to have been economic with the truth.

A course layout where a failure of any sort on the final turn severely threatens the crowd line.

About another 70 observations/recommendations from the NTSB.

Hmmm, I think I'll leave the gun at home and continue to mix with people who aren't cowboys.

[CF104]

Thanks, that makes a bunch of sense, and I guess in theory, adding weight may make them less prone to flutter at higher speeds. But I wonder what effect that extra weight would have on them in high g banked turns, or transient high g loads? Just trying to wrap my head around that particular modification.

I think the mod you're talking about is the counterweight on the elevator control torque shaft aft of the cockpit. This weight was added to due to the P-51's tendency to get light on the elevator control during high positive G's. With this weight installed the stick forces increased with the onset of G instead of getting less.

Cheers,

John

[treadigraph]

How is it really any different from these idiots who claim to be pilots when all they have done is Microsoft flight sim! Or the PPL (H) who applies to fly the Police EC145?

Pittsextra, perhaps you'd care to share with us the details of your expertise in this particular tragedy? Or should we add "amateur accident investigation experts" to your list?

NTSB committee includes Hoot Gibson and Bill Kerchenfaut. I know who they are and have some appreciaton of why their expertise has been called upon - do you?

I trust their integrity. And await the conclusions of the NTSB. I'll not pre-judge Jimmy Leeward on the basis of incorrectly completed race application forms. If he's found wanting elsewhere then fair enough. My head is not in the sand, and neither is it up my backside.

Chuck Ellsworth: Age? Rubbish, I'd happily go flying with you anytime, mate! I can't imagine many better exponents of good airmanship!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Thanks treadigraph, as time passes I often wonder how I managed to survive so long in aviation and never wrecked an aircraft.

A lot of the credit has to go to the many excellent captains I flew with when I was getting started.

However in the final analysis I somehow managed to say no when I got that feeling things were about to exceed my limits and I credit that with making the difference between failing and succeeding as a pilot..

Few pilots ever figure out that it is not rules and regulations and all the other checks and procedures that make for safe flight.....it is mainly using common sense and never betting your life on something that may kill you if you push to far.

When the airplane gets ahead of where you wanted it to be you have crossed the line from safe to unsafe.

I got fired from a few jobs by saying no to unsafe operations.....but I'm still here.

[Pittsextra]

I don't know why having an opinion on this has any relevance to what the NTSB report will finally conclude.

The published documents are interesting and for all of the things that you say don't matter or are irrelevant, namely age and flight time, they are exactly the things Leeward exaggerated.

Now I don't know why you would at 72 years of age hand write your age as 59 as he did in 2009. You can say age is irrelevant but clearly he didn't think so.

Then flying time - why is that hard to find? Don't you just look at your log book and copy the number?? What's with the 13500+? Any pilot can give theirs to a decimal place!

The final report will be interesting.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Code:

Then flying time - why is that hard to find? Don't you just look at your log book and copy the number?? What's with the 13500+? Any pilot can give theirs to a decimal place!

You are quite wrong with that statement Pittsextra.

I can not give the exact number of hours I have flown during my career, I quit keeping a personal log book decades ago because there was no need to.

Hell I probably can't even come close to the exact number of hours I have flown.

Same goes for the different airplanes I have flown, however if I see an airplane picture and I have flown it I can remember that.

[Pittsextra]

Tread - I think you are getting muddled. I don't think one needs any expertise in air accident investigation - nor a desire to be an investigator neither pro or am to be able to read the published material and have a view.

This accident seems more than anything to make people very emotive.

Good airmanship means different things to different people and some have defended the cowboy, wild west nature of Reno. If that's the way people want to go flying then that's for them.

One question - at what point does it become unprofessional?

[Pittsextra]

So you don't keep a personal flying log book but you might be able to figure that when the FAA log for the total time on the Ghost airframe is circa 1400hrs you would fond it impossible to have done 2500+ in that particular plane right??

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Code:

So you don't keep a personal flying log book but you might be able to figure that when the FAA log for the total time on the Ghost airframe is circa 1400hrs you would fond it impossible to have done 2500+ in that particular plane right??

Of course, most any idiot could figure that out.

All I am pointing out is total time on anything is a very poor measure of ones skills period.

One of the reasons I quit flying for a living was the ever expanding need for paper work and ever expanding rules and regulations in aviation.

Here is another real shocker for you, I seldom if ever wore one of those hi-viz gismos so loved by the bureaucracy and in spite of my not wearing one no airplane or other vehicle on any airport ever ran me down....go figure.

[DeeCee]

Time for bed now Chuck.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Code:

Time for bed now Chuck.

Naw....it's only 6 P.M. here on Vancouver Island......

[flydive1]

Originally Posted by Pittsextra

I don't know why having an opinion on this has any relevance to what the NTSB report will finally conclude.

The published documents are interesting and for all of the things that you say don't matter or are irrelevant, namely age and flight time, they are exactly the things Leeward exaggerated.

Now I don't know why you would at 72 years of age hand write your age as 59 as he did in 2009. You can say age is irrelevant but clearly he didn't think so.

Actually more than opinion you said that:

- the pilot was drunk
- he lied about his age
- he lied about his flight experience
- he lied about his age
- he modified his aircraft and did not test it.

About the age issue, could that be that the 59 is just a badly written 69? Would make sense.

[Pittsextra]

I didn't say he was drunk I merely reflected the report that highlighted the ethanol findings.

He did lie about his age (59, badly written 69 is not 72,73 or 74) for 3 years running. Regardless of people opinions on age and ability to fly.

He did lie about his flight experience. Regardless of peoples opinion on hours and ability.

Its my opinion that he lied about the level of testing given the lack of documentation and absence of memory from the crew under questioning. That is opinion nothing more.

[JEM60]

This all very sad to read. I guess to some extent it comes under the 'lot of old pilots, lot of bold pilots', familiarity breeding contempt etc., I met Mr. Leeward at Oshkosh some years ago, in fact, I have his baseball cap in a cupboard at home [long story].Like Treadi, I know the name Chuck Ellsworth and would have the same comments re flying with him as Treadi.
When I was a mere PPL, and stayed that way, I found that the best way to improve ones flying was to scare oneself s......s from time to time!!. Never made the same mistake again. Out of this disaster can olnly come good. RIP everyone.