Big Crash at Reno
Join Date: Aug 2007
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As a British enthusiast, I would like to pay tribute to Mr. Leeward. I met him at Oshkosh five years ago, and he gave me his baseball hat, with his other Mustang 'Cloud Dancer' on it. He was a very nice man, who always had time to speak to enthusiasts. British people who met him were frequently invited to visit his 'Air Ranch', where he was most accomodating to everyone, inviting even casual spectators to share in his barbecue. His cap became my 'decorating' hat. I will now refurbish it to it's 'as new' status, and it will sit on a shelf at my house in memory of this very pleasant man, whom, I gather, had recently become a Lay Preacher. RIP Jimmy. You were one of the best. Condolences to EVERYONE involved in this tragedy.
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Pure speculation, but here is a possible scenario, after all this is a rumour network...
Elevator trim tab failure at high speed causes extreme high 'g' pitch up, pilot blacks out, slumps forwards, 'g' causes tailwheel unlock, aircraft impacts at full power.
Notice that in the pictures of the aircraft just before impact that the pilot's helmet is not visible, the elevator trim tab is damaged and the tailwheel is extended.
Details of the aircraft in normal configuration:
Galloping Ghost Specifications | Florida's Premier Airpark - Leeward Air Ranch
Elevator trim tab failure at high speed causes extreme high 'g' pitch up, pilot blacks out, slumps forwards, 'g' causes tailwheel unlock, aircraft impacts at full power.
Notice that in the pictures of the aircraft just before impact that the pilot's helmet is not visible, the elevator trim tab is damaged and the tailwheel is extended.
Details of the aircraft in normal configuration:
Galloping Ghost Specifications | Florida's Premier Airpark - Leeward Air Ranch
I'd be surprised to learn that a failure like that would result in such a catastophic loss of control
westhawk
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Happened in 98 I think to another P-51 - apparently the aircraft pulled around 11G in the pitch up but luckily went straight up and not over such as this one. Pilot blacked out initially but recovered through 10,000' to get the aircraft back on the ground.
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Hi,
Very clear pics of the accident (care .. explicits pics)
Updated pics: Air Races tragedy | rgj.com | Reno Air Races | Reno Gazette-Journal
Head pilot not showing ... unconscious ?
Very clear pics of the accident (care .. explicits pics)
Updated pics: Air Races tragedy | rgj.com | Reno Air Races | Reno Gazette-Journal
Head pilot not showing ... unconscious ?
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IF that image is real;
My own reaction to an unexpected pitch up would probably be to pull the power.
I'm guessing that a race-spec P51 has a bit more torque than my spam can, so along with the wonky elevator and the speed, might that be enough to put it on its back and... well you've seen the video ?
My own reaction to an unexpected pitch up would probably be to pull the power.
I'm guessing that a race-spec P51 has a bit more torque than my spam can, so along with the wonky elevator and the speed, might that be enough to put it on its back and... well you've seen the video ?
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Hi,
I can see on the pic that the elevators (the left for sure) are in neutral position during final dive
Can because the pilot loss consciousness .... ?
It's a real pic...
It's been captured from various angles.
It's been captured from various angles.
Can because the pilot loss consciousness .... ?
Onetrack
There has already been considerable tightening of the rules since the incidents you mention. Which is partly why no spectator has been killed or seriously injured at a UK display for nearly 60 years.
Incidentally neither the Farnborough nor the Ramstein crashes involved either elderly aircraft or elderly pilots. Can you give an example of an airshow crash where pilot or aircraft age was a factor?
There has already been considerable tightening of the rules since the incidents you mention. Which is partly why no spectator has been killed or seriously injured at a UK display for nearly 60 years.
Incidentally neither the Farnborough nor the Ramstein crashes involved either elderly aircraft or elderly pilots. Can you give an example of an airshow crash where pilot or aircraft age was a factor?
Moderator
What a sad event. Though I never met Mr. Leeward, I flew into his air ranch a number of times.
Though I have no more information than what I see here, and I am not P 51 pilot, I can say that an elevator trim tab failure would be one of the most scary in flight failures I could dread. Yes, it could very easily completely over power the pilot, and indeed even the flight control system itself.
I once suffered a 5 degree elevator trim tab stop rigging error on a Cessna 206 (one quarter that airspeed of a P 51), and that very small control error created control forces which were at a minimum 50 pounds, where they should have been able to be trimmed out completely. I have total empathy for what Mr. Leeward must have had to manage for those last few seconds.
Though I have no more information than what I see here, and I am not P 51 pilot, I can say that an elevator trim tab failure would be one of the most scary in flight failures I could dread. Yes, it could very easily completely over power the pilot, and indeed even the flight control system itself.
I once suffered a 5 degree elevator trim tab stop rigging error on a Cessna 206 (one quarter that airspeed of a P 51), and that very small control error created control forces which were at a minimum 50 pounds, where they should have been able to be trimmed out completely. I have total empathy for what Mr. Leeward must have had to manage for those last few seconds.
Moderator
Two things strike me about that photo:
The tail wheel is extended, when the mains are not, and, Mr. Leeward is not visible in the cockpit, a I would expect. Could a very high G event be a single cause of both of these things? A pitch trim failure could certainly cause very high G.
The tail wheel is extended, when the mains are not, and, Mr. Leeward is not visible in the cockpit, a I would expect. Could a very high G event be a single cause of both of these things? A pitch trim failure could certainly cause very high G.
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I don't think the pilot's age had anything to do with this. There was at least one guy who was 82 and was an aerobatic instructor. I think that as long as a pilot can pass the physicals and has no sign of demential and such he/she should be allowed to keep on flying. (Personally I think the requirement that dictates airline pilots have to retire at 60 is stupid as well -- from what I remember, the requirement didn't have anything to do with age related problems)
From what that still picture shows (if the shot is legit), it looks similar to what hambleoldboy described.
BTW: Regarding to the statement of racing a P51 at 500 kts at low level... I was under the impression that the P-51 was only capable of those speeds in a dive, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was the case.
From what that still picture shows (if the shot is legit), it looks similar to what hambleoldboy described.
BTW: Regarding to the statement of racing a P51 at 500 kts at low level... I was under the impression that the P-51 was only capable of those speeds in a dive, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was the case.
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To suggest that the crash was a result of his age simply because of his age alone is ridiculous.
Whilst I typically hate speculation, I think there's some evidence in the photographs - which along with previous accidents might give an insight into what happened. These are photographs of the aircraft;
Notice the lack of an elevator trim tab in the first photo. There was a previous incident a few years ago when during fast level flight, the trim tab of another P-51 (Voodoo Chile) broke off and the aircraft pulled into a 10G pitch-up. The pilot at the time was Bob Hannah. He immediately lost conciousness, and woke up having gained almost 9000 feet. If you look at the photographs of his aircraft 'Voodoo Chile' after the incident, you'll notice it's the same trim tab that went missing.
Also notice in the second photograph that you cannot see a pilot in the cockpit. One way or another he must be slumped forward, very consistent with heavy positive G.
And let's face it, I doubt there's anyone in the world who can stay concious with a completely unexpected and immediate 10G load.
Furthermore, the testimony of people on the scene suggests structural failure.
Whilst I typically hate speculation, I think there's some evidence in the photographs - which along with previous accidents might give an insight into what happened. These are photographs of the aircraft;
Notice the lack of an elevator trim tab in the first photo. There was a previous incident a few years ago when during fast level flight, the trim tab of another P-51 (Voodoo Chile) broke off and the aircraft pulled into a 10G pitch-up. The pilot at the time was Bob Hannah. He immediately lost conciousness, and woke up having gained almost 9000 feet. If you look at the photographs of his aircraft 'Voodoo Chile' after the incident, you'll notice it's the same trim tab that went missing.
Also notice in the second photograph that you cannot see a pilot in the cockpit. One way or another he must be slumped forward, very consistent with heavy positive G.
And let's face it, I doubt there's anyone in the world who can stay concious with a completely unexpected and immediate 10G load.
Furthermore, the testimony of people on the scene suggests structural failure.
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I've never seen an aircraft accident like this. Incredible footage on The UK Daily Mail website, taken from a podcast.
Considering the speed of the aircraft, it seems fortunate that it went down vertically. In the podcast you can see an impact point and then nothing (I can see) that looks like an aircraft. No fire or smoke (save a short initial burst), just impact and debris.
Those hit by shrapnel must be in a state and I hope they don't suffer too much, too long.
I haven't been to an air race, but these sort of high impact crowd incidents take one back to motor racing in the 1950's and 60's. 74 years old seems to be a bit much to be absorbing so much g and for this sort of high energy environment.
O'Neill.
Considering the speed of the aircraft, it seems fortunate that it went down vertically. In the podcast you can see an impact point and then nothing (I can see) that looks like an aircraft. No fire or smoke (save a short initial burst), just impact and debris.
Those hit by shrapnel must be in a state and I hope they don't suffer too much, too long.
I haven't been to an air race, but these sort of high impact crowd incidents take one back to motor racing in the 1950's and 60's. 74 years old seems to be a bit much to be absorbing so much g and for this sort of high energy environment.
O'Neill.