Rudder issues

[AucT]

Thank you very much everyone! I shall try with 30 degree bank turns and buy myself a cockpit foto in order to practive checks. Any more advice would be very much welcome!

[Intercepted]

Sitting in front of a cutout/mockup/cockpit poster (typically about £15 from a pilot shop) with a checklist, repeatedly practicing checks until particularly the airborne / emergency checks are second nature, can save a great deal of time, and thus money in the air.

You can always turn up on rainy days when your lesson is cancelled and sit in the cockpit for real without being charged a penny for it.

Edit: Just don't drain the battery too much, fiddling with that Garmin 430.

[AdamFrisch]

In my old plane the equilibrium is so delicate it's almost an artform onto itself. As you trim, the tab, which is just on the left side of the elevator, induces an ever so slight roll. I'm talking a degree every second month, or something equally slow To compensate for this, I add the most subtle rudder trim.

But one tiny ascent, gust, descent, roll, trim change and the whole delicate balance is off. It becomes this elusive nirvana one keeps chasing. It never lasts. But it's great fun trying to keep everything in balance perfectly.

Just as roll's secondary effect is a move around the vertical axis, rudder's secondary effect is a move around the horizontal axis - rudder is also roll.

[overun]

Ghengis, forgive me.

l believe that certain things should be remembered. The basics.
The ones who had difficulty remembering in times of stress during instruction were advised to save their money, at least by me.

You instruct on an aircraft that you don`t know intimately ?

Are you charging them ?

[Zulu Alpha]

I agree with Backpacker, don't worry too much about the rudder. Think more about making the aircraft go where you want, ie keeping runway heading or whatever else is required.

I had a share in a Piper with autopilot and just used to change course and climb/descend using the autopilot. It didn't use any rudder.

The use of rudder becomes more important on landings, particularly crosswind landings and you will find that this is much more intuitive.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Dar has it. We call it 'rolling around a point'. Pick a point on the horizon, and feet on floor roll left/right 30 or so degrees and watch the nose. It will swing left/ right quite considerably.

Now do it again but this time with co-ordinated rudder (or slightly in advance) of the roll input, and when you get it right that point you chose will be glued to the spinner.

[stiknruda]

AucT

Cast your mind back to when you were learning to drive: you never knew how far to push the clutch pedal before it began to disengage... then one day you never thought about it any more?

Rudder is a bit like that!

With centre-line (tandem) seating, it's a lot easier to feel balance: ie both butt cheeks appear to bear the same pressure from the seat cushion. If one feels heavier - press that pedal to re-establish equilibrium.

Hope this helps,

Stik

[flyinkiwi]

Originally Posted by AucT

I am training in C152 and it "masks" the need for rudder and I am developing "lazy feet"

Gee if you think the 152 is bad, wait till you fly a Pa28/38.

Seriously, I had the same problem as you have when I was learning. I can say that through practice you will learn to balance your turns instinctively, but always cross check what you see outside with what your turn coordinator/indicator is telling you. And the comment about the skill being perishable is definitely true, I tend to be all over the place if I don't fly for a while.

[mary meagher]

Rudder? what's a rudder? all you stubby wings people only need a rudder when taxying.....

Try flying in a training glider, not to mention 18 or 25 meter wingspan, and then you will discover what a rudder is for.

There is an extremely sensitive and high tech instrument usually taped on the outside of the canopy, which will soon show if there is excess rudder one way or the other in flight... sometimes it blows off and you have to find another piece of string.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by overun

Ghengis, forgive me.

l believe that certain things should be remembered. The basics.
The ones who had difficulty remembering in times of stress during instruction were advised to save their money, at least by me.

You instruct on an aircraft that you don`t know intimately ?

Are you charging them ?

I imagine that most instructors occasionally have to teach on aeroplanes they've only got 100 or so hours on and haven't got access to the design drawings of. Embarrassing, but that's how it is, everybody's time is limited, and manufacturers can be very reluctant to let you have enough information to know an aeroplane intimately. I've only ever gone into that much detail on maybe 30 types, of the 97 in my logbook - so am presumably very limited compared to yourself?

And I did not say that I don't know the aeroplane, I said that I hadn't flown it for a few months and so needed to work harder at keeping the aeroplane absolutely in balance. It doesn't mean I failed or don't know the aeroplane - just that my feet got lazy from mostly flying aeroplanes less than 50 years old over the summer whilst I was busy writing mod applications to keep a 64 year old aeroplane, for which we can no longer get original parts, flying.

And no, I don't charge members of my syndicate for instruction on an aeroplane that I'm the only current instructor on in Europe, and which I mostly fly for fun. My choice, I charge elsewhere on other aeroplanes that I don't have a personal interest in.

So, you make sure you've been through all of the design drawings, maintenance manuals and flight test reports, and have a couple of hundred hours on every type you teach on presumably? Very admirable, I really wish I could.

(Okay, I could have just said "don't be an arsehole", but if you are going to be such a self-rightous prat, you deserve a little more vitriol).

G

[overun]

Oh dear, the very best that l used to be able to do was to show how to do things, and then let them learn.

A self righteous prat ? The prat l would have to go along with. Arseh*le ? l can`t argue with that either.

Ghengis, please don`t make the mistake of acquiring ratings and assuming that is carte blanche for delivering instruction.

Ghengis the Engineer, at what point did you stop engineering and become a font of wisdom for pilots ?

[mrmum]

overun You instruct on an aircraft that you don`t know intimately ?
Genghis I imagine that most instructors occasionally have to teach on aeroplanes they've only got 100 or so hours on

I would say that every FI I know, has instructed on an aircraft they don't know intimately. The rule used to be that you had to have 5 hours on type before instructing on it, it's not even that nowadays.
Why should a FI have "intimate" knowledge of what they're instructing on? Is that intimacy with type or actual aircraft? It depends what you're doing, who it's with and your individual experience. I've got a couple of thousand recent hours on Warriors/Archers and dozens (but years ago) on a slab-wing Cherokee, one of my ex-students has bought themselves a Cherokee 180, what do I need to do to achieve the apparently desired intimacy, before I conduct a dual revalidation flight for their class rating with them in their own aircraft? NOTHING.

[overun]

Just to wind the likes of you up a bit more - from my lofty castle - you probably know about as much as he/she does about who is selling what these days.

Unfortunately, the beast has to be fed.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Gosh ! things move fast !! edited to add what I should have put at the top of my post, thought I was responding to the post above ( I was at the time ! )

start with ..............

This would only be a bad thing if I was unaware of the need, or couldn't cope - neither of which is true. But it is also true that I still had to work at it.

and my response was...

Absolutely, it's not less than perfect flying that one should worry about, but ignoring it and not making the right corrections.

[overun]

l`m really sorry but l don`t understand what you said. Could you explain ?

[mary meagher]

Wow! and I used to get the chop for thread drift? less vitriol, amigos!

A good instructor has a reasonable acquaintance with the aircraft, not necessarily intimate. A good instructor is able to assess the qualities of his student. And a very very good instructor does not hesitate to say "I have control!" when things get too exciting.

The more experience you have as an instructor, the higher your pain barrier and the closer one can come to that coffin corner before taking over; but one's hands are never too far away. When at the age of 50 I first took up flying, and wanted to learn how to land, John Cumberpatch at a strip in the US of A which enjoyed a perpetual crosswind, never let me contact the earth. Which now makes me wonder how experienced he actually was?........

There are types of aircraft of which few examples exist, usually for very good reasons. And then some bozo actually buys it because it is cheap (for very good reasons) and asks an instructor to help him learn to fly the beast.....

Can any of you wise old birds reading this titilate us with an example from your experience of this problem?

[Pilot DAR]

Good post Mary...

I am not a flying instructor (so I'm likely to be reminded that there's lots I don't know about flying planes). I was thinking about this very thread last week. It was my first occasion as PIC flying a Cessna Grand Caravan. (I have about 25 total time on them). As I was doing takeoff testing of the aircraft following modification, and precise recording of time was required, I took along an observer.

He is a 900 or so hour pilot, who does not fly regularly. I let him fly the circuit part for many of them, just to refresh. I watched all of the turns (albeit shallow circuit turns) with my feet lightly on the pedals. The ball would wander side to side, with not a motion into the pedals from his side. I commented this, and got an "oh yeah" response. The subsequent turns did not show any better technique. Not an unsafe situation of course, though my butt noticed.

However, this abdication of control of one of the three axis of control, is to me indicative of common piloting error/oversight, and should be flown with much more precision by the offenders - just for precision's sake. It seems as if there must be some unspoken threshold of yaw error before correction is considered necessary. So as these "offending" pilots are not using the pedals adequately, where is that habit coming from? Instruction (lack of) must be playing a part!

I felt complimented by a remark from my 15,000 safety pilot, while test flying a Twin Otter (in which I have less than 100 hours over 25 years). He said "You must fly taildraggers a lot".

[ExSp33db1rd]

Can any of you wise old birds reading this titilate us with an example from your experience of this problem?

Maybe not so wise ! the next few weeks will tell.

I've just been asked to teach a 50 yr. old ( so you're in good company there Mary ) to fly.

I'm an 'advanced' microlight instructor, Tecnam, ALPI, high speed machines that give a Cessna 172 a good run for its' money, but bureaucratically still microlights in NZ, i.e. up to 544 Kg, LSA's in some administrations, and not the rag and tube units that are usually associated with the term 'microlight'

However, this guy has chosen not to learn to fly on our club Tecnam first, but buy his own " Bantam ". a NZ design of a side by side, open cockpit, rag and tube pukka 'microlight' with a two stroke Rotax engine !!

I did indeed fly this type, for about a total of about 3 hours, about 10 years ago, when I first embraced microlight flying, so I have the type rating and am technically 'legal' but .... !!

I'm now seeking someone with a similar "Bantam" who will give ME some instruction, or at least some hands on experience alongside him, first !

Trouble is, I can't carry a passenger until l've done 3 solo landings of my own, - Catch 22 - so I'll have to fly as his passenger and watch, there being no other Bantam qualified instructors around !

Watch this space ( no fool like an old fool )

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ex,

You need a type rating for a microlight? and 3 take-offs and 3 landings on type?

I can accept that good practice is that you get a bit of time on type before teaching it - I'd do exactly that I hope. The old British rule of 5 hours is a reasonable one, although it depends to some extent how you define "type".

But I've not previously heard of any regime which requires a type rating for a microlight aeroplane, nor requires 3 take-offs and 3 landings in type, rather than in class. That does sound like something of a bureaucratic nightmare to exist within.

G

N.B. Do teach the fellow how to do a circuit and landing on rudder alone. A teleflex cable failure, causing loss of the flaperons, is not an unknown event on a Bantam. I'd suggest that this is the second most likely failure after an engine failure on this type.

[mad_jock]

Come on surely as experenced instructors you don't need to get checked out per say just use common sense.

All the trike SEP's I have flown have the same picture on approach and if you nail that, the speed sorts itself out if you do the normal apparoach grad.

As for the rest of the handling have a look at the book, have a taxi and and a couple of fast stops.

Go fly it at medium weight,

Go high and run through the stalling exercises and have a steep turn or two. See what its like near the stall.

At a suitable speed throw it around a bit and see what the control responces are like. Do a PFL.

Then go an do a couple of normal circuits at book speeds different configs then do a fast approach and see how much it floats.

Then if everything feels normal and comfy, then go teach in it.

5 hours is just an arbitory number with no requirment for actually learning the envelope.