Letting my passenger land the aircraft?
Depending upon severity of the offence and who catches you, somewhere on a scale between a dirty look and being strung up by the balls by the Chief Pilot.
If you disregard the FOB in a flying club and in doing so bend an aeroplane, there's a fair risk of having to pay for all the damage yourself, rather than the insurance doing so.
G
Está servira para distraerle.
I daresay she could and would sue you for at least 2,000 hours worth of PA28 time if she even so much as bent a pinkie under the rudder pedal on a landing if you'd let her have one. Of course if you'd let her try and she went farming and minced up a few picnickers (or however you spell the irritating things) you might end up drawing on your pension fund earlier than you'd planned?
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Do I need to? So far as I know, unless you can prove otherwise, there is nothing in the ANO or any subsidiary regulations that prohibit an unqualified passenger handling the controls at any point in a flight.
Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
I would suggest handling controls is acting as a member of flight crew, would you not ?
Furthermore :
'Pilot in command' means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of an aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft
So since your person in the RHS is a student and you're presumably not qualified to act as instructor (or permitted to act as one in the given aircraft) , there's only ever going to be one PIC and that's you.
Last edited by mixture; 19th Aug 2011 at 22:33.
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Well, somebody doesn't know the rules, because she only needed to pass Air Law to go solo.
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I haven't read it so could you clarify articles 51 to 60?
Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
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Would be too wordy to reproduce here, but the headers summarise what they concern quite nicely :
51 :
Exception to act as flight radiotelephony operator
52:
Exception for solo flying training
53:
Exception for dual flying training
54:
Exception for gyroplanes at night
55:
Exception for balloons
56:
Exception for pilot undergoing training or tests
57:
Exception for navigators and flight engineers
58:
Exception for members of HM Forces
59:
Exceptions for gliders
60:
Exception where CAA permission granted
In terms of the training exception, as you might expect, it mandates appropriate ratings :
Full text of ANO can be found here
51 :
Exception to act as flight radiotelephony operator
52:
Exception for solo flying training
53:
Exception for dual flying training
54:
Exception for gyroplanes at night
55:
Exception for balloons
56:
Exception for pilot undergoing training or tests
57:
Exception for navigators and flight engineers
58:
Exception for members of HM Forces
59:
Exceptions for gliders
60:
Exception where CAA permission granted
In terms of the training exception, as you might expect, it mandates appropriate ratings :
the person acts in accordance with instructions given by another person holding a pilot's licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, in each case being a licence which includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor's rating or an assistant flying instructor's rating entitling that other person to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown; and
Full text of ANO can be found here
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So since your person in the RHS is a student and you're presumably not qualified to act as instructor (or permitted to act as one in the given aircraft) , there's only ever going to be one PIC and that's you.
In terms of the training exception ....
Mike Stamp
I will speak with the club owner tomorrow and see what he says about letting me allow her to land the aircraft.
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I would suggest handling controls is acting as a member of flight crew, would you not ?
This is where different country's have different views.
What defines flight crew required is in the aircraft speks. Mostly these days its just pilots but in the old days it was Navigator, radio operator, flight engineer and of course the pilots.
Of course for a light aircraft it just one pilot the PIC.
There is nothing to state that the flight crew needs to be the one handling the controls. Just that they have to be at a functional set during flight.
You can't for example like some have been done doing, be PIC in the rear seat of a four seater.
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Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
How does a student unlicenced pilot hold an appropriate licence granted to fly say a Seneca twin?
For a student to land an aeroplane I would think they are without doubt acting as a flight crew and as such have to hold an appropriate licence.
A navigator as a flight crew from days past would not hold appropriate licences to handle the aircraft.
So not so sure you are right now?
Pace
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I agree with mad-jock.
As to the sense i get increadingly fed up with our pc attitude.
Surely we are adults, qualified pilots, qualified to excercise sound judgement or is that also to be taken from us? With 2,000 hours you should know when and how to salvage an approach when and to what extent you are happy to allow the approach to continue and when to intervene - its really not rocket science. With a few hundred hours its probably a different matter.
Now if its not your aircraft you have a resposibility to the owners and you ask the question of them, but, were it me, i would not be concerned as long as i was happy with your flying skills.
As to the sense i get increadingly fed up with our pc attitude.
Surely we are adults, qualified pilots, qualified to excercise sound judgement or is that also to be taken from us? With 2,000 hours you should know when and how to salvage an approach when and to what extent you are happy to allow the approach to continue and when to intervene - its really not rocket science. With a few hundred hours its probably a different matter.
Now if its not your aircraft you have a resposibility to the owners and you ask the question of them, but, were it me, i would not be concerned as long as i was happy with your flying skills.
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Ghengis and MJ are right. Passenger handling is perfectly legal and always has been. One of my log books even has an entry column for "passenger flying."
As MJ points out many "wifies" do "pinchhitter" courses without ever qualifying which can only be a good thing (in more ways than one)
As MJ points out many "wifies" do "pinchhitter" courses without ever qualifying which can only be a good thing (in more ways than one)
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I often let my 14 year old son fly from the RHS. He has done many greasers in his time, with me lightly at standby on the controls.
I learned to fly from the RHS when I was 11 years young
I've helped out with air scout camps where I've let many lads have a go at flying, and a few have actually done pretty good landings.
My aeroplane, with their parents and leaders permission, and full knowledge of the flying club at the airfield.
A question for those who think this is or should be illegal -what's the difference (legally, we can all agree I think about the need to take great care with safety I think) - what's the difference between asking a passenger to change a transponder code or altimeter subscale setting, and letting them handle the yoke and rudder?
G
My aeroplane, with their parents and leaders permission, and full knowledge of the flying club at the airfield.
A question for those who think this is or should be illegal -what's the difference (legally, we can all agree I think about the need to take great care with safety I think) - what's the difference between asking a passenger to change a transponder code or altimeter subscale setting, and letting them handle the yoke and rudder?
G
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How does a student unlicenced pilot hold an appropriate licence granted to fly say a Seneca twin?
See 53: Exception for dual flying training
(or 52 Exception for solo flying training)
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What defines flight crew required is in the aircraft speks.
Actually, no. It's in the ANO.
'Flight crew' in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radiotelephony operator of the aircraft;
I would say letting someone land the aircraft is more than "handling the controls" (i.e. letting them do a few turns and climbs at cruise altitude). Doing the approach and landing is very much piloting (what's that old saying .... any monkey can fly an aircraft but only a pilot can land it).
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I am a flying instructor and would have concerns about some people doing it with others I wouldn't have an issue.
Then there is the magic day when my FI runs out. Do I magically over night loose the ability to allow some else to land while I am watching safely or for that matter fly in the RHS. In fact I haven't flown in the LHS of a SEP for getting on for 7 years now. I am sure that some schools of thought would require that I do some training before I can fly in the LHS again.
Its funny how the handling the controls causes great discussion but the none qualified pax doing the Navigation is never moaned about. Which in my view is by far the most important job while going from A to B.
We have 2 distinct areas here there is the giving a shot while at altitude which happens all the time, in fact its recommended if the pax is feeling air sick. And the landing of the aircraft/areo's/stalling/steep turns etc. Which still goes on but its not talked about as much but still legal.
There is under commercial ops restrictions on who can manipulate the controls but none in private ops.
There is a list of dutys in the ANO for the PIC, it doesn't include actually flying the machine.
The aircraft does define what flight crew you require onboard and its different depending on its certification sometime different depending on the reg.. Most POM state that one member of crew has to be at the flying controls at all times and for take off and landing all flight crew members must be at their assign stations.
Then there is the magic day when my FI runs out. Do I magically over night loose the ability to allow some else to land while I am watching safely or for that matter fly in the RHS. In fact I haven't flown in the LHS of a SEP for getting on for 7 years now. I am sure that some schools of thought would require that I do some training before I can fly in the LHS again.
Its funny how the handling the controls causes great discussion but the none qualified pax doing the Navigation is never moaned about. Which in my view is by far the most important job while going from A to B.
We have 2 distinct areas here there is the giving a shot while at altitude which happens all the time, in fact its recommended if the pax is feeling air sick. And the landing of the aircraft/areo's/stalling/steep turns etc. Which still goes on but its not talked about as much but still legal.
There is under commercial ops restrictions on who can manipulate the controls but none in private ops.
There is a list of dutys in the ANO for the PIC, it doesn't include actually flying the machine.
The aircraft does define what flight crew you require onboard and its different depending on its certification sometime different depending on the reg.. Most POM state that one member of crew has to be at the flying controls at all times and for take off and landing all flight crew members must be at their assign stations.
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'Flight crew' in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radiotelephony operator of the aircraft;
I have actually changed camps again back to Ghengis and Mad Jock!
Flight crew is in relation to members of a crew on an aircraft.
A PA28 does not have a crew but is single pilot.
A light jet requires a type rating and two crew so the second pilot has to have a legal rating.
There cannot be a crew on a PA28, two pilots cannot log the hours so the aircraft is not acknowledged by the authorities as being a crewed aircraft.
Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
Ok I have been converted to the fact that I can legally allow a non pilot to land an aircraft.
Still dont know what the insurance would say as you sit there on the nose with no gear and tell them you were letting your non pilot girlfriend have an attempt at landing
Pace