Letting my passenger land the aircraft?
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Letting my passenger land the aircraft?
Hi I have a young friend who is days from sitting her skills test in the Cessna 152 and she is interested in converting to the PA28 after she gets her PPL so I said I would take her up for a flight with me and let her fly it to see if she likes it. I'm just wondering if I would get in trouble for letting her land the aircraft?
It's not like she's inexperienced she has about 70 hours now and her instructor always says how quickly she picks ups everything and he had her landing on her 4th lesson in. Also we have about 1000m of runway length.
Mike
It's not like she's inexperienced she has about 70 hours now and her instructor always says how quickly she picks ups everything and he had her landing on her 4th lesson in. Also we have about 1000m of runway length.
Mike
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Quick answer: If you are not an instructor, you cannot allow a non licensed pilot to fly an aircraft under your authority.
If there is no unfavourable outcome in the flight, who knows what happened, and who did what (aside from one of you talking later), so it is a non event. Other than if the plane gets bent, it's on your record, not your passenger's. If you are flying an aircraft you do not own, you are morally obligated to operate the aircraft as the owner expects you are, which certainly would not include letting the passenger land it. Anything goes wrong, the insurance could walk, and you could be paying out of pocket.
Are you competent to quickly fix a landing which has gone awry? Do you want the risk?
If there is no unfavourable outcome in the flight, who knows what happened, and who did what (aside from one of you talking later), so it is a non event. Other than if the plane gets bent, it's on your record, not your passenger's. If you are flying an aircraft you do not own, you are morally obligated to operate the aircraft as the owner expects you are, which certainly would not include letting the passenger land it. Anything goes wrong, the insurance could walk, and you could be paying out of pocket.
Are you competent to quickly fix a landing which has gone awry? Do you want the risk?
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Apart from whats been said above also consider how much your 70 hr student pilot has flown from the right seat?
My guess is none and it is very different flying and landing from the right.
OK people do it especially more experienced pilots who feel they can recover a situation which has gone bad but you are opening a can of worms if the unthinkable happens.
That even includes a licenced pilot landing from the right. Is he approved on the insurance? does he have the required hours? does his licence cover that particular aircraft?
As the official Captain the buck stops with you so unless you are prepared to accept the crash as yours ( possible fraud charges if anyone finds out) Your taking a risk.
As with most things everything is fine while its fine but its when something goes wrong that the tiniest clause will be a let out for the insurance so dont even consider a licenced pilot unless you are sure they meet all the requirements never mind an unlicenced one.
Its your call, your risk!
Pace
My guess is none and it is very different flying and landing from the right.
OK people do it especially more experienced pilots who feel they can recover a situation which has gone bad but you are opening a can of worms if the unthinkable happens.
That even includes a licenced pilot landing from the right. Is he approved on the insurance? does he have the required hours? does his licence cover that particular aircraft?
As the official Captain the buck stops with you so unless you are prepared to accept the crash as yours ( possible fraud charges if anyone finds out) Your taking a risk.
As with most things everything is fine while its fine but its when something goes wrong that the tiniest clause will be a let out for the insurance so dont even consider a licenced pilot unless you are sure they meet all the requirements never mind an unlicenced one.
Its your call, your risk!
Pace
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Thanks for the replies, so what I'm getting from this is that it's all okay aslong as nothing goes wrong or anybody finds out.
In reply to Pace saying about experienced pilots, I have about 2000 hours on the PA28 alone.
Mike
In reply to Pace saying about experienced pilots, I have about 2000 hours on the PA28 alone.
Mike
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Thanks for the replies, so what I'm getting from this is that it's all okay aslong as nothing goes wrong or anybody finds out.
Pilots do things like that
As long as you are prepared to take the risk and suffer the consequences if something does go wrong its your shot but its not okay as you put it from a legal point of view.
Noticed for 2000 hrs in a PA28 alone you have only just joined pprune????? always makes me suspicious.
For someone who has 2000 hrs you already know the answer so why the question which gets you to join PPRUNE to answer?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Aug 2011 at 17:27.
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Apart from the above mentioned, why encourage a student who is ready to sit her test in a high wing Cessna occupying the LHS to land a low wing Piper from the RHS? It makes no sense. Differently positioned taps and switches, trim wheel in another place, electric fuel pump etc etc...
Definitely a retrograde step with regards to her training. After the test and license issue, fill your boots.
Definitely a retrograde step with regards to her training. After the test and license issue, fill your boots.
I assume from the phrase "skill test" combined with fluent English, that this is a UK question. In which case, legally speaking, you're wrong DAR. The pilot in command remains fully responsible for the flight and its consequences, but is well within their rights to allow an unqualified pilot to handle the controls, including through a landing.
However, now why it's not a good idea anyhow:
(1) As a non-instructor, you are not trained to correct a bad landing, or brief a good one. 1000m of runway won't stop them landing it on the nosewheel.
(2) Unless it's your own aeroplane, it's probably against club rules.
(3) About to take their skill test at 70 hrs, they probably aren't quickly picking everything up and getting it right first time !
(4) You may well have bad habits of your own, that you'll be doing no favours by exposing them to just before their skill test.
I'd suggest leaving it until after they have their PPL, and not doing landings, which is the manoeuvre with the single greatest potential to break an aeroplane if mishandled and best left to an instructor to take them through.
G
N.B. Who on earth has 2,000hrs in PA28s without being a flying instructor anyhow?
However, now why it's not a good idea anyhow:
(1) As a non-instructor, you are not trained to correct a bad landing, or brief a good one. 1000m of runway won't stop them landing it on the nosewheel.
(2) Unless it's your own aeroplane, it's probably against club rules.
(3) About to take their skill test at 70 hrs, they probably aren't quickly picking everything up and getting it right first time !
(4) You may well have bad habits of your own, that you'll be doing no favours by exposing them to just before their skill test.
I'd suggest leaving it until after they have their PPL, and not doing landings, which is the manoeuvre with the single greatest potential to break an aeroplane if mishandled and best left to an instructor to take them through.
G
N.B. Who on earth has 2,000hrs in PA28s without being a flying instructor anyhow?
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Genghis:
Would you care to expand on the legality of this?
In which case, legally speaking, you're wrong DAR. The pilot in command remains fully responsible for the flight and its consequences, but is well within their rights to allow an unqualified pilot to handle the controls, including through a landing.
Would you care to expand on the legality of this?
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In reply to Pace I joined pprune after asking other pilots I knew this question and they didn't know the answer so they said to ask on here.
In reply to Genghis yes I currently fly in the UK, she took so long in getting to her test because she progressed well in the practical side but not so much with doing the exams and was ready to do the skills test at 53 hours but only had air law, nav and the human performance exams passed. But it's interesting in what you say about it being under my authority to let them land but the blame still be with me. I will speak with the club owner tomorrow and see what he says about letting me allow her to land the aircraft.
Mike
In reply to Genghis yes I currently fly in the UK, she took so long in getting to her test because she progressed well in the practical side but not so much with doing the exams and was ready to do the skills test at 53 hours but only had air law, nav and the human performance exams passed. But it's interesting in what you say about it being under my authority to let them land but the blame still be with me. I will speak with the club owner tomorrow and see what he says about letting me allow her to land the aircraft.
Mike
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For someone who has 2000 hrs you already know the answer so why the question which gets you to join PPRuNe to answer?
The pilot in command remains fully responsible for the flight and its consequences, but is well within their rights to allow an unqualified pilot to handle the controls, including through a landing.
I told them they could not prove a thing. While pretending they could do something, they did nothing....
Had we bent the plane.... very different story.
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Jollyrog it's not a group shared pa28 it's a club trainer pa28
I think though taken in account what you have all said I will just let them do some general handlin i.e turns and straight and level and leave the rest to myself
Mike
I think though taken in account what you have all said I will just let them do some general handlin i.e turns and straight and level and leave the rest to myself
Mike
Do I need to? So far as I know, unless you can prove otherwise, there is nothing in the ANO or any subsidiary regulations that prohibit an unqualified passenger handling the controls at any point in a flight.
Maybe one point - if an insurer prohibit it, then the flight in being uninsured is then illegal.
It's still not very clever, but not so far as I know absolutely illegal.
G
Maybe one point - if an insurer prohibit it, then the flight in being uninsured is then illegal.
It's still not very clever, but not so far as I know absolutely illegal.
G
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Mike
Thanks for that info and hope you post here more. Frankly I would not even ask the question just go do it.
There is no way the CFI could officially approve of a student being in command of an aircraft she doesnt meet the insurance requirements to fly or the licencing requirements to fly.
So if you want to do it dont tell anyone! your risk!!!
To be fair the above is just as illegal as letting her land but less risky?
Pace
Thanks for that info and hope you post here more. Frankly I would not even ask the question just go do it.
There is no way the CFI could officially approve of a student being in command of an aircraft she doesnt meet the insurance requirements to fly or the licencing requirements to fly.
So if you want to do it dont tell anyone! your risk!!!
I think though taken in account what you have all said I will just let them do some general handlin i.e turns and straight and level and leave the rest to myself
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In a group aircraft the ops manual may specify that the PIC has to be in the left seat, so there is no argument who's fault it is/ who was PIC if something goes wrong. Presumably the insurer would not be too interested if they were approached by a fellow with his hands out claiming to be PIC while flying from the right seat. I don't know what a club aircraft ops manual will have in it, but I'd definitely look there first before doing anything else.
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Letting someone else land isn't illegal and neither is them having a pole in flight either. Or for that matter PIC flying in the RHS
As for issurance they may or may not be fine with it. Two folk that i did safety pilot courses for were both allowed to land the aircraft with a licensed PPL in the LHS. In fact the insurer was more than happy for them to keep their skills up. We had a fax with in 10 mins confirming the phone call as well. One was in a club aircraft the other was a private.
NOw this is the current situation after EASA things may change.
To note this is only for G reg aircraft in UK airspace. germany France etc have different interpratations of the rules.
As for issurance they may or may not be fine with it. Two folk that i did safety pilot courses for were both allowed to land the aircraft with a licensed PPL in the LHS. In fact the insurer was more than happy for them to keep their skills up. We had a fax with in 10 mins confirming the phone call as well. One was in a club aircraft the other was a private.
NOw this is the current situation after EASA things may change.
To note this is only for G reg aircraft in UK airspace. germany France etc have different interpratations of the rules.
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Mad Jock
I bow to you and Genghis as I never knew that (not kidding)
The way Europe seems to be going into meltdown I question the word AFTER EASA
Pace
I bow to you and Genghis as I never knew that (not kidding)
NOw this is the current situation after EASA things may change.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Aug 2011 at 18:43.
G
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There is a lot of ****e and urban myth about this stuff in the UK. And from folk that appear to well versed in the rules.
Everything is setup that the PIC is the PIC. Unless there is something from the manufacturer which locks down the PIC seat its pretty much all on the PIC's shoulders to justify their actions if anything goes wrong which is the crunch of it.
Insurance companys seem actually very happy with none standard requests. Its seems the simple fact that you asked means you are sensible enough to realise what you want to do is not normal. But as there are not a huge amounts of accidents with none PPL's landing with a none instructor they don't care.
Before then NPPL came along there were quite a few groups that had medical grounded pilots flying with other group members in the LHS. They were even named on the insurance policy. Quite bizarre in fact one I knew was one of the listed check pilots for the group, he hadn't been fit for a class 2 for 5 years.
Now nothing that has been said though means that a flying school or group can't state in thier flying order manual that there are different rules for thier school/ group aircraft. If they do have a restriction you must abide by it.
Everything is setup that the PIC is the PIC. Unless there is something from the manufacturer which locks down the PIC seat its pretty much all on the PIC's shoulders to justify their actions if anything goes wrong which is the crunch of it.
Insurance companys seem actually very happy with none standard requests. Its seems the simple fact that you asked means you are sensible enough to realise what you want to do is not normal. But as there are not a huge amounts of accidents with none PPL's landing with a none instructor they don't care.
Before then NPPL came along there were quite a few groups that had medical grounded pilots flying with other group members in the LHS. They were even named on the insurance policy. Quite bizarre in fact one I knew was one of the listed check pilots for the group, he hadn't been fit for a class 2 for 5 years.
Now nothing that has been said though means that a flying school or group can't state in thier flying order manual that there are different rules for thier school/ group aircraft. If they do have a restriction you must abide by it.