Severe Turbulence
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Hi All,
I am a PPL holder and have been flying for over 10 years so have had my fair share of turbulence in light aircraft and as a passenger on commercial flights.
I arrived back from San Francisco earlier today and have experienced what I can only describe as the scariest thing in my entire life. Flying British Airways 747-400 from SFO, we were about an hour into the flight and the cabin crew had just finished handing out the first food serving as we started to experience some mild turbulence. Enough to make a nervous flyer uncomfortable but nothing than concerned me and the seatbelt signs were left off.
After a few minutes of this the turbulence went from mild to violent with the 747 being thrown around like I could never imagined. This started to make me a little uncomfortable, even as an experienced pilot and passenger, the seatbelt signs remained off and the cabin crew were still going about their business.
All of a sudden the 747 was flung violently upwards then slammed downwards as is if someone had hold of it by the tail. The engines had a clear loss of power and the aircraft went into a nose down attitude and began to bank right, all while still violently shaking, passengers screaming and trays drinks flung around the cabin. To be honest, I wasnt sure we were going to recover.
The seatbelt signs went on as the flight crew tried to regain control of the aircraft and put power back onto the engines. While they managed to do this we remained flying in these conditions for a further 45 minutes or so, the longest of my life I might add, the intermitently violent spells of turbulence until we reached the Atlantic and leaving Canada behind.
I spent the remaining 6 hours of the flight terrified at every jolt and its left me feeling I never want to get in an aircraft ever again! Now while I hope that won't be the case it has definately unnerved me significantly and I'm questioning whether I would want to feel that way again.
Has anyone else ever experienced this?
I am a PPL holder and have been flying for over 10 years so have had my fair share of turbulence in light aircraft and as a passenger on commercial flights.
I arrived back from San Francisco earlier today and have experienced what I can only describe as the scariest thing in my entire life. Flying British Airways 747-400 from SFO, we were about an hour into the flight and the cabin crew had just finished handing out the first food serving as we started to experience some mild turbulence. Enough to make a nervous flyer uncomfortable but nothing than concerned me and the seatbelt signs were left off.
After a few minutes of this the turbulence went from mild to violent with the 747 being thrown around like I could never imagined. This started to make me a little uncomfortable, even as an experienced pilot and passenger, the seatbelt signs remained off and the cabin crew were still going about their business.
All of a sudden the 747 was flung violently upwards then slammed downwards as is if someone had hold of it by the tail. The engines had a clear loss of power and the aircraft went into a nose down attitude and began to bank right, all while still violently shaking, passengers screaming and trays drinks flung around the cabin. To be honest, I wasnt sure we were going to recover.
The seatbelt signs went on as the flight crew tried to regain control of the aircraft and put power back onto the engines. While they managed to do this we remained flying in these conditions for a further 45 minutes or so, the longest of my life I might add, the intermitently violent spells of turbulence until we reached the Atlantic and leaving Canada behind.
I spent the remaining 6 hours of the flight terrified at every jolt and its left me feeling I never want to get in an aircraft ever again! Now while I hope that won't be the case it has definately unnerved me significantly and I'm questioning whether I would want to feel that way again.
Has anyone else ever experienced this?
I've experienced rotor first hand a number of times when flying out of Minden (just South of Reno). If you're not expecting it, it's very, very unpleasant. For a PPL I'd fully expect you to be uncomfortable about flying through it. As a glider pilot, I've actualy used it numerous times as a way of gaining height in order to benefit from the smooth rsing air above it associated with wave. Minden is one of the World's most renowned soaring sites precisely because of its location which makes it ideal for wave conditions.
Usually ATC will advise airliners when there's known wave in the area but, like the weather, it's not always completely predictible. So, combine the unexpected sudden onset of the situation with the possible lack of awareness/experience of the crew in dealing with the problem (amazing how many CPL's don't know about thermals, wave and rotor) and thinks may have become a tad frantic for a while!
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As an airline pilot who has been flying airliners for nearly 30 years I would like to make a few comments on the big differences between the pilot's experience of turbulence and the passenger's. I have no doubt that you found the experience very frightening. The fear of falling is natural and even airline pilots who are passengering feel that temporary sense of alarm when the plane suddenly drops. I wasn't there on your flight and I could be totally wrong but this is my opinion:
If the seatbelts signs were off and the cabin crew were still going about their business although it seems to you to be violent it is likely to have been nothing more than light turbulence. It is most unlikely that the pilots forgot to switch on the seat belt sign. It is more likely they judged it as light chop that did not merit the seat belt sign.
Turbulence does not cause the engines to lose power. If the airspeed suddenly increased the autothrottle would have commanded a reduction in power. Turbulence penetration speed is normally less than cruise speed and it is likely that the pilots selected a lower speed and the engines reduced thrust accordingly. Light to moderate turbulence will knock over drinks and trays with associated gasps from passengers. An abrupt change of 3 degress nose down feels like a steep dive to passengers.
The autopilot stays engaged in turbulence. Some aircraft have a turbulence mode where the priority is towards level flight rather than chasing an altitude. The flight crew would not be "trying to regain control of the aircraft" but would be allowing the autopilot to level the wings and the autothrottle to maintain a target airspeed. As the airspeed is likely to be up and down in turbulence it is likely the engine thrust will be too.
Incidentally if the aircraft experienced severe turbulence the flight crew are required to make an entry in the tech log. I've only had to do it twice in almost 30 years of flying. Severe turbulence does not normally last more than a few minutes. The turbulence you encountered may well have been unexpected. Pilots have weather charts with areas of forecast turbulence shown on them, but there are often areas with nothing shown that have unexpected turbulence.
I have been at a baggage carousel before in uniform waiting for my bag and heard a nearby passenger also waiting for his bag shouting excitedly into his phone that there was "unbelievable turbulence" and the plane "almost came apart". The turbulence was never more than light occasionally moderate and we had had the seatbelt signs on for about 20 minutes of the 8 hour flight. Of course he might have been on a different flight and been waiting for his bag at the wrong carousel but I doubt it.
After a few minutes of this the turbulence went from mild to violent with the 747 being thrown around like I could never imagined. This started to make me a little uncomfortable, even as an experienced pilot and passenger, the seatbelt signs remained off and the cabin crew were still going about their business.
All of a sudden the 747 was flung violently upwards then slammed downwards as is if someone had hold of it by the tail. The engines had a clear loss of power and the aircraft went into a nose down attitude and began to bank right, all while still violently shaking, passengers screaming and trays drinks flung around the cabin. To be honest, I wasnt sure we were going to recover.
The seatbelt signs went on as the flight crew tried to regain control of the aircraft and put power back onto the engines
Incidentally if the aircraft experienced severe turbulence the flight crew are required to make an entry in the tech log. I've only had to do it twice in almost 30 years of flying. Severe turbulence does not normally last more than a few minutes. The turbulence you encountered may well have been unexpected. Pilots have weather charts with areas of forecast turbulence shown on them, but there are often areas with nothing shown that have unexpected turbulence.
I have been at a baggage carousel before in uniform waiting for my bag and heard a nearby passenger also waiting for his bag shouting excitedly into his phone that there was "unbelievable turbulence" and the plane "almost came apart". The turbulence was never more than light occasionally moderate and we had had the seatbelt signs on for about 20 minutes of the 8 hour flight. Of course he might have been on a different flight and been waiting for his bag at the wrong carousel but I doubt it.
One of the joys of flying internal US flights is the Comms channel on United's flights. From listening to that on a few occasions, US pilots seem almost paranoid about getting and giving ride reports.
I guess your bout of turbulence must have been pretty unexpected if nobody had reported it.
I guess your bout of turbulence must have been pretty unexpected if nobody had reported it.
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I like many others i'm sure, always feel safer when i am in charge.
At 35,000ft things change somewhat (for me as a passenger at least), I have no problem with the turbulence, however with the monotony of a 4 hour flight with little to do, comes the propensity to notice the smallest of differences. I suppose sitting without an instrument panel and constant ATC chatter leaves one to speculate further over insignificant changes and apparent oddities.
I can vividly recall a flight back from the Dominican Republic to London (this was when I was around 11, so the memories maybe slightly enhanced...), it was a Virgin A340. Nothing was too eventful at first, however a couple of hours into the flight we experienced the clear air turbulence which is likely to only distract a more nervous flyer. A couple of minutes later, the seatbelt sign went on - I imagine even a frequent flyer may start to wonder what maybe in store after the ominous chime.
Anyway, over the next half an hour, the intensity of this turbulence increased to the extent the cabin crew stopped service, and were asked to be seated. By this time, it was no more than moderate, however instead of dying out, this turbulence went on for at least 4 hours. I wouldn't describe this as scary (no unexpected hundred foot drops or the like) but the continuity certainly managed to turn my stomach upside down.
I think everyone has their own experiences (I'm fairly young, so I haven't many yet), but I think it's interesting how situations differ due to the psychological situation the person is in.
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I am not an airline pilot 
but I do think airliners will ride out turbulence because they want to stay on track to keep to their schedule, whereas a private pilot with passengers is more likely to do something about it.
Also airliners fly high where there often is clear air turbulence over long distances (the jet stream) whereas at GA altitudes, say FL100-FL200, once you are above the clouds the air is normally completely calm. I have done plenty of 4-7hr IFR flights and none of them had any significant turbulence enroute.
The longest bit I recall was a flight across the Alps, about FL170 i.e. about 8000ft above the terrain (down to the Adriatic) and there was a fairly gentle up/down ride. Nothing harsh, but a bit like being on a boat. Lasted about 15 minutes.
but I do think airliners will ride out turbulence because they want to stay on track to keep to their schedule, whereas a private pilot with passengers is more likely to do something about it.Also airliners fly high where there often is clear air turbulence over long distances (the jet stream) whereas at GA altitudes, say FL100-FL200, once you are above the clouds the air is normally completely calm. I have done plenty of 4-7hr IFR flights and none of them had any significant turbulence enroute.
The longest bit I recall was a flight across the Alps, about FL170 i.e. about 8000ft above the terrain (down to the Adriatic) and there was a fairly gentle up/down ride. Nothing harsh, but a bit like being on a boat. Lasted about 15 minutes.
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The best way as a pilot is to go with it I have even slapped my side and proclaimed " Ride em cowboy "
In twins and being slightly hair light I can remember going to the hairdresser after a heavy flight in a twin and the hairdresser pointing out a 1 inch cut from hitting the roof so belt in and hold onto something?
PAX are the big problem especially in GA where even in jets you have that personal contact the crew of heavies do not.
There is nothing much you can do but warn them, make little of the turbulence, slow down or change levels.
Some PAX love turbulence! Probably the type who love fairground rides. Yes I have had some who get a buzz from turbulence.
At the other end of the scale some think the wings are about to fall off reassure them with tales of this is nothing you wouldnt believe what these birds will tolerate.
Smile, look calm, joke tell them that everyone on the radio is complaining even the heavies otherwise they will think its just you or the aircraft is not up to it!
Even then some will be petrified.
Really do read your PAX especially in the company I can remember flying a lady in a private jet.Not a turbulence thing but something quite beautiful.
We were on auto at FL370 over the Alps with the most stunning views of the Alps covered in snow I had seen. We came to a sharp turning point and the aircraft banked to the new course.
Grabbing my camera I clicked a few shots.
The owner rang me stating that the female PAX had complained that I was doing steep turns over the Alps taking photos!!! I pointed out that I was very unlikely to be handflying at 37K in RVSM airspace? So beware of PAX if your in Ear or eye shot of them!!!
10540
The worst turbulence I have ever experienced was between 20 K and 30K over the Alps and not clear air turbulence but mountain enduced so dont believe that assumption.
No the airlines or business jets dont just ride out turbulence to keep on track. We request (sorry demand massive deviations to avoid large CBs)
Clear air turbulence gives little option other than to climb or descend and reduce speed but stick on track.
What do light GA pilots do lower level? Land!!!
Pace
In twins and being slightly hair light I can remember going to the hairdresser after a heavy flight in a twin and the hairdresser pointing out a 1 inch cut from hitting the roof so belt in and hold onto something?
PAX are the big problem especially in GA where even in jets you have that personal contact the crew of heavies do not.
There is nothing much you can do but warn them, make little of the turbulence, slow down or change levels.
Some PAX love turbulence! Probably the type who love fairground rides. Yes I have had some who get a buzz from turbulence.
At the other end of the scale some think the wings are about to fall off reassure them with tales of this is nothing you wouldnt believe what these birds will tolerate.
Smile, look calm, joke tell them that everyone on the radio is complaining even the heavies otherwise they will think its just you or the aircraft is not up to it!
Even then some will be petrified.
Really do read your PAX especially in the company I can remember flying a lady in a private jet.Not a turbulence thing but something quite beautiful.
We were on auto at FL370 over the Alps with the most stunning views of the Alps covered in snow I had seen. We came to a sharp turning point and the aircraft banked to the new course.
Grabbing my camera I clicked a few shots.
The owner rang me stating that the female PAX had complained that I was doing steep turns over the Alps taking photos!!! I pointed out that I was very unlikely to be handflying at 37K in RVSM airspace? So beware of PAX if your in Ear or eye shot of them!!!
I am not an airline pilot but I do think airliners will ride out turbulence because they want to stay on track to keep to their schedule, whereas a private pilot with passengers is more likely to do something about it.
Also airliners fly high where there often is clear air turbulence over long distances (the jet stream) whereas at GA altitudes, say FL100-FL200, once you are above the clouds the air is normally completely calm. I have done plenty of 4-7hr IFR flights and none of them had any significant turbulence enroute.
Also airliners fly high where there often is clear air turbulence over long distances (the jet stream) whereas at GA altitudes, say FL100-FL200, once you are above the clouds the air is normally completely calm. I have done plenty of 4-7hr IFR flights and none of them had any significant turbulence enroute.
The worst turbulence I have ever experienced was between 20 K and 30K over the Alps and not clear air turbulence but mountain enduced so dont believe that assumption.
No the airlines or business jets dont just ride out turbulence to keep on track. We request (sorry demand massive deviations to avoid large CBs)
Clear air turbulence gives little option other than to climb or descend and reduce speed but stick on track.
What do light GA pilots do lower level? Land!!!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 18th Aug 2011 at 18:51.
Upto The Buffers
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I seem to recall that the ATPL theory notes described severe turbulence as creating "a risk of structural damage".
I've had 2 experiences of what I'd call strong turbulence. First just south of Dewsbury inbound to Leeds which involved repeatedly having my head smacked on the roof and not being able to focus on the instruments, and the second departing the US when cabin crew ordered everyone to pour their hot drinks on the carpet before they and their trollies (and a couple of halfwits who thought they were too important to weat seatbelts) got slapped between roof and floor a few times with some minor bone breakage.
I've had 2 experiences of what I'd call strong turbulence. First just south of Dewsbury inbound to Leeds which involved repeatedly having my head smacked on the roof and not being able to focus on the instruments, and the second departing the US when cabin crew ordered everyone to pour their hot drinks on the carpet before they and their trollies (and a couple of halfwits who thought they were too important to weat seatbelts) got slapped between roof and floor a few times with some minor bone breakage.
