Fatal accidents
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In pure statistical terms GA flying is around the motorcycle level of fatalities for time at risk. That makes it appreciably more dangerous than driving to the airfield.
Does it make it acceptable or unacceptably dangerous? All depends upon your perceptions of the risk. The posts above show how people have come to their decisions. In my case I look at young people on motorcycles and realise we have a plentiful source of organ donors
. But using similar thinking to that above I regard my flying as 'safe enough'.
Of course if you asked those young people they would say the same of their motorcycling!
Does it make it acceptable or unacceptably dangerous? All depends upon your perceptions of the risk. The posts above show how people have come to their decisions. In my case I look at young people on motorcycles and realise we have a plentiful source of organ donors
. But using similar thinking to that above I regard my flying as 'safe enough'.Of course if you asked those young people they would say the same of their motorcycling!
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Part of the problem is that people do not fully appreciate the risks of GA. It is not as safe as airline flying, and final approaches can rapidly change from thinking about whether to get a coffee on the way home to near disaster.
There is no pause button in flying, and I think that there is actually a fair amount of complacency amongst certain individuals, but they'd probably say I was too cautious!
There is no pause button in flying, and I think that there is actually a fair amount of complacency amongst certain individuals, but they'd probably say I was too cautious!
Moderator
well... although I am not a motorcycle rider, I am a firefighter. I have my own micro statistical snapshot.
We help up fallen motorcyclists and pilots. Two things are different: the pilots walk away more often, because they had some structure around to protect them, and the pilots generally seem to have more been the cause of their own difficulty, rather than being a victim of circumstance (other motorists doing unanticipated things).
Motorcyclists seem to become victim of factors, which they cannot control, and perhaps could not plan early enough to compensate for.
Pilots, on the other hand, seem to come to grief more as a result of their own decision making. Of the 20 or so plane crashes I have attended, 4 were fatal. All were spin in's from close to the ground. Two were very good friends, one horsing around at low altitude (a STOL kit would have compensated his foolishness, and saved his life), and the other a turnback following EFATO. He was a 20,000+ hour pilot, who tried for the airport behind him, rather than the shallow lake ahead. He nearly made it. The other two were very poorly conducted training for EFATO.
Of my four engine failures in flight, two were EFATO. In all cases, I was lucky enough not only to land mostly ahead, but to do so in a place from which a takeoff was possible following rectification.
I have not said that there is not luck involved in piloting!
So from that, I take it that proficiency, and good flying practice/discipline go a long way to keeping flying safe for PPL's
We help up fallen motorcyclists and pilots. Two things are different: the pilots walk away more often, because they had some structure around to protect them, and the pilots generally seem to have more been the cause of their own difficulty, rather than being a victim of circumstance (other motorists doing unanticipated things).
Motorcyclists seem to become victim of factors, which they cannot control, and perhaps could not plan early enough to compensate for.
Pilots, on the other hand, seem to come to grief more as a result of their own decision making. Of the 20 or so plane crashes I have attended, 4 were fatal. All were spin in's from close to the ground. Two were very good friends, one horsing around at low altitude (a STOL kit would have compensated his foolishness, and saved his life), and the other a turnback following EFATO. He was a 20,000+ hour pilot, who tried for the airport behind him, rather than the shallow lake ahead. He nearly made it. The other two were very poorly conducted training for EFATO.
Of my four engine failures in flight, two were EFATO. In all cases, I was lucky enough not only to land mostly ahead, but to do so in a place from which a takeoff was possible following rectification.
I have not said that there is not luck involved in piloting!
So from that, I take it that proficiency, and good flying practice/discipline go a long way to keeping flying safe for PPL's
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In pure statistical terms GA flying is around the motorcycle level of fatalities for time at risk. That makes it appreciably more dangerous than driving to the airfield.
Often he drives off, sometimes unaware that he caused an accident.
Whereas GA safety is 99.x% down to the pilot and the aircraft. If you fly carefully, with diligent preparation, stick to good go/no-go rules, and the plane is maintained properly (which is not at all the same thing as legally) then flying is much safer than riding a motorbike, especially these days with the roads being populated by so many drivers who are either half blind or extremely aggressive.
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so Silverair 2 options
Your safe pilot has an inapropriate gauge?
or
He's pushing/pulling too hard
or posibly (number 3)
Faking it
and to the OP, no its not safe. Breathing is dangerouse, you might breath in some germs that ight kill you. Don't give up flying or breathing.
Your safe pilot has an inapropriate gauge?
or
He's pushing/pulling too hard
or posibly (number 3)
Faking it
and to the OP, no its not safe. Breathing is dangerouse, you might breath in some germs that ight kill you. Don't give up flying or breathing.
Moderator
Interestingly, while renewing my car insurance just now, I saw a different statistical basis for flying safety:
My records of driving and flying are both the best the insurers consider, for setting ratings. My 2009 VW diesel Jetta wagon is in the next to safest rate class (better than VW Jetta sedan, or Golf apparently!). It's insured value is about 3/4 of the insured value of my 1975 C 150M. I fly and drive these two nearly equal amounts each year. (My rating for "distance to work" is very favourable).
The insurance premium is more costly on the car than the plane, per value insured, both hull and liability. That means to me that the insurers must think that the risk of a claim is greater for the car than the plane. They obviously think flying my plane is a safer thing for me to do than driving my car. It's just statistics!
My records of driving and flying are both the best the insurers consider, for setting ratings. My 2009 VW diesel Jetta wagon is in the next to safest rate class (better than VW Jetta sedan, or Golf apparently!). It's insured value is about 3/4 of the insured value of my 1975 C 150M. I fly and drive these two nearly equal amounts each year. (My rating for "distance to work" is very favourable).
The insurance premium is more costly on the car than the plane, per value insured, both hull and liability. That means to me that the insurers must think that the risk of a claim is greater for the car than the plane. They obviously think flying my plane is a safer thing for me to do than driving my car. It's just statistics!
More chance of winning the lottery than having an accident with an aeroplane.
KT, it's not safe, life isn't safe. Someone much smarter than I am once said that we take (calculated) risks not to escape life but to stop life escaping us.
Your choice, pally.
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I remember on my first ever flight in a light GA looking down at some hefty tyres which I know would do serious damage if dropped from ten feet onto someones head and seeing that tyre lifting skywards as the aircraft climbed.
We are not meant to defy gravity gravity defies us.
How many people are paralysed through falling off horses every year or off ladders fixing the house.
If we had a world which had no weather cavok, clear skies and no winds and could stop an aircraft stalling or flying into another flying would be extremely safe.
Bring in the weather, the winds, fog, shear etc and this becomes our enemy.
It then holds that if we can fly in cloud safely as out of cloud and the aircraft is equipt to deal with all that clouds hold including ice flying becomes very safe.
Obviously we still have other factors of weather like thunderstorms, and strong winds.
The airlines are well equipt and their pilots well trained but the light GA is not.
Flown on good weather days the light GAs are very safe but put an underpowered light GA out of its design element to deal with weather its pilots are not trained or experienced to deal with and the airframe is not designed to handle and there lies the problem for heavy accident stats in light GA.
From the list and probably the best bit of advice! Never do anything in aviation where there are no options other than the one you are taking as that then becomes a game of russian roulette.
Always fly within your and the aircrafts limit as either you or the aircraft out of those limits is asking for trouble! Above all know what those limits are as many dont.
Contrary to the above is a saying I love which can be read two ways.
" unless you push the boundaries of your limits you will never know what lies beyond" Ie you either survive and become a much more experienced pilot or sadly for some end up as a statistic.
Pace
We are not meant to defy gravity gravity defies us.
How many people are paralysed through falling off horses every year or off ladders fixing the house.
If we had a world which had no weather cavok, clear skies and no winds and could stop an aircraft stalling or flying into another flying would be extremely safe.
Bring in the weather, the winds, fog, shear etc and this becomes our enemy.
It then holds that if we can fly in cloud safely as out of cloud and the aircraft is equipt to deal with all that clouds hold including ice flying becomes very safe.
Obviously we still have other factors of weather like thunderstorms, and strong winds.
The airlines are well equipt and their pilots well trained but the light GA is not.
Flown on good weather days the light GAs are very safe but put an underpowered light GA out of its design element to deal with weather its pilots are not trained or experienced to deal with and the airframe is not designed to handle and there lies the problem for heavy accident stats in light GA.
Always have a way out.
Always fly within your and the aircrafts limit as either you or the aircraft out of those limits is asking for trouble! Above all know what those limits are as many dont.
Contrary to the above is a saying I love which can be read two ways.
" unless you push the boundaries of your limits you will never know what lies beyond" Ie you either survive and become a much more experienced pilot or sadly for some end up as a statistic.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 10th Sep 2011 at 11:21.
Avoid imitations
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In my experience it's not that aircraft are unsafe, but what people try to do with them can be.
I watched the Youtube link above of the man falling to his death whilst trying to climb from a biplane wing to a formating helicopter.
One sarcastic but to the point comment from "pilotmanfisher" took my eye and it illustrates my point exactly:
I watched the Youtube link above of the man falling to his death whilst trying to climb from a biplane wing to a formating helicopter.
One sarcastic but to the point comment from "pilotmanfisher" took my eye and it illustrates my point exactly:
"hmmm so how can we make walking on the outside of planes safer????"
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Nothing in life is without risk, so the question as posed is not very useful.
A better question "Is flying safer than x?"
If x = being seated in an armchair, answer equals NO
If x = mountaineering in winter then answer equals YES (probably)
A better question "Is flying safer than x?"
If x = being seated in an armchair, answer equals NO
If x = mountaineering in winter then answer equals YES (probably)
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What a bunch of candyasses...
I miss the days when " Flying was dangerous and sex was safe."
I ride a 1000 cc sports bike every day in HK traffic. It goes faster than the Cessna I fly when I find time to unleash it.
It is as safe as I choose it to be...just like my flying.
I'm fed up with candyasses who blame stats for their inability to perform with adequacy.
PIC means just that. If you are unable or unwilling to take responsibility up there or down here, don't
bother.
Stick to posing and answering dumb fear issues on a GA forum.
Man up people!
I miss the days when " Flying was dangerous and sex was safe."
I ride a 1000 cc sports bike every day in HK traffic. It goes faster than the Cessna I fly when I find time to unleash it.
It is as safe as I choose it to be...just like my flying.
I'm fed up with candyasses who blame stats for their inability to perform with adequacy.
PIC means just that. If you are unable or unwilling to take responsibility up there or down here, don't
bother. Stick to posing and answering dumb fear issues on a GA forum.
Man up people!
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Subsonicscubic
Just had a wander through your previous posts?? As a fairly recent 172 driver I am sure you have all the experience in the world to make your comments.
I really hope you dont end up as another statistic yourself.
For myself I have lost 5 friends to flying and could have equally joined them on 5 occasions that spring to mind of my own making.
The difference? someone was looking down on me.
" unless you push the limits you will never know what lies beyond". But in pushing those limits as far as aviation goes you will either survive or perish.
If you survive you will probably become an experienced pilot who has learnt from his/her mistakes or you end up as my friends.
Far safer to fly within your limits and the aircraft limits and to know those limits.
pace
Just had a wander through your previous posts?? As a fairly recent 172 driver I am sure you have all the experience in the world to make your comments.
I really hope you dont end up as another statistic yourself.
For myself I have lost 5 friends to flying and could have equally joined them on 5 occasions that spring to mind of my own making.
The difference? someone was looking down on me.
" unless you push the limits you will never know what lies beyond". But in pushing those limits as far as aviation goes you will either survive or perish.
If you survive you will probably become an experienced pilot who has learnt from his/her mistakes or you end up as my friends.
Far safer to fly within your limits and the aircraft limits and to know those limits.
pace
Moderator
It goes faster than the Cessna I fly when I find time to unleash it
I take it that while you're "unleashing" your 1000CC crotch rocket, you imagine you can find a place in Hong Kong, which is long and straight enough, and unoccupied enough, to safely get going faster than a Cessna? I'm not sure that Hong Kong even has enough airspace for a Cessna to go faster than a Cessna, much less a road that would enable that to be done safely on the ground!
Avoid imitations
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you imagine you can find a place in Hong Kong, which is long and straight enough, and unoccupied enough, to safely get going faster than a Cessna?
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People have evolved to withstand falls on the level and collisions at running speed. If you want to go faster / higher than that you must be able to assess risk and control it to an acceptable level.
Trouble is that most people can't assess risk accurately and resort to all sorts of approaches which make them feel safe (including for example lucky pebbles).
So assess the risk of flying (and anything else for that matter) then either accept it or don't do it.
It was understanding and accepting the risks that got man to the moon. Safety is an enabler and if it is ever not an enabler then it is a weak excuse for something else like fear of litigation or cost avoidance.
Trouble is that most people can't assess risk accurately and resort to all sorts of approaches which make them feel safe (including for example lucky pebbles).
So assess the risk of flying (and anything else for that matter) then either accept it or don't do it.
It was understanding and accepting the risks that got man to the moon. Safety is an enabler and if it is ever not an enabler then it is a weak excuse for something else like fear of litigation or cost avoidance.
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So assess the risk of flying (and anything else for that matter) then either accept it or don't do it
Fine but here lies the big question? You can climb a cliff face without ropes!
You take that risk. If you fall and die you hurt no one but yourself. Your choice.
Flying is different! Your PAX? Do you have a right to assess that risk on behalf of others especially when those others are not aviation knowlegable?
Should a newbie pilot with a green licence inform his passenger that he is new and inexperienced before taking that passenger for a flight thus giving them the chance not to take the flight.
The PPL flying PAX in bad weather? Should he explain the risks of flying a light single prop without deice anti ice and without back up systems to his un knowing passengers before the flight or does he have the right to assess the risk and make decisions for them?
What you do with your own life is one thing what you do with others is another matter?
Pace