Getting landings right

[ScottinTexas]

I am having trouble getting my landings right. I am making hard landings, sometimes on all three wheels. On final I am aiming for the touchdown zone until I am at the right altitude for my flare, but when I do flare the plane starts to climb. I have to correct so I over correct and then have to flare harder to get the nose back up. In that moment I touchdown hard. I am not sure if I should be looking down the runway sooner than I do or if I am too focused on my landing point. I know that the check ride will be judging my touchdown point and maybe I am letting that thought interfere with my landing.

My instructor has gone over the sequence a zillion times, but I am not improving very well. I don't know what else he can tell me. I looked all over the net to find an article about landings. There was one on Airbum.com but it didn't seem to address my problem. I was hoping that some of you experts might be able to shed some light on landing technique in words that my instructor hasn't used. This coming Wednesday I want to make 3 perfect landings. Then I will solo. After that it's cross country, night flight, and check ride.

I began my flying instruction in Seattle in 1980. I was flying a C150. I soloed, made my cross country flights and did everything except a check ride. At the time I thought I was going to have to do a spin for the examiner. After having done one with my instructor (and I didn't know we were going to spin) I decided I didn't ever want to do spins again. So I flew occasionally just for "practice." Then I got transferred and life happened. I found out I will not have to do spins so now I am getting my license. I had 50 hours before and now have 12 or 14 new hours 30 years later. But what happened to my landings? I used to be able to set down on grass runways without leaving a mark. Now I can barely keep from denting the concrete runway.

[dublinpilot]

I am having trouble getting my landings right. I am making hard landings, sometimes on all three wheels. On final I am aiming for the touchdown zone until I am at the right altitude for my flare, but when I do flare the plane starts to climb. I have to correct so I over correct and then have to flare harder to get the nose back up. In that moment I touchdown hard. I am not sure if I should be looking down the runway sooner than I do or if I am too focused on my landing point. I know that the check ride will be judging my touchdown point and maybe I am letting that thought interfere with my landing.

Two things that might help.

1. You mention the "right altitude for my flare". The Flare is not one single quick movement. It should start off rather slow, where you're simply slowing down your desent rate. If your flare is taking place inside 5 seconds, then you have no chance of getting it right. It should be a gradual transition from a desent, to level flight.

2. Your eyes should transfer to the 3/4 point or far end of the runway, as soon as you can start to "look along it" rather than "looking down on it".

I hope that helps.

dp

[2high2fastagain]

Not an expert here, just a low hours amateur. However, I had similar problems. Having also learned on short field grass, I found long concrete runways a big problem. What worked for me was some advice from a CFI who told me to keep eyes on end of runway, try to fly down it very close to surface and keep about 100rpm on instead of completely cutting the engine. Obviously you need a good length to avoid overshooting, but it worked for me. The fly down method also allows you some time to kick off any drift so you avoid that nasty squealing jerk on touchdown. I'm sure you'll get plenty of other better ideas, but this works for me.

[bingofuel]

If the runway is long enough, ask your instructor to fly down the runway in the flared attitude but with power on to avoid actually landing. This should give you time to take in the 'picture' and peripheral views.

When you do it yourself try mentally once rounding out, to fly as close (low) to the runway as you can without landing. Of course as you slow down you will keep easing back on the controls to raise the nose to stop the sink, until eventually you are so slow you will land in the correct attitude and gently..

[BackPacker]

What is your approach speed (the speed you have "over the numbers") and is this the right speed for your actual aircraft weight (as listed in the POH)?

[ScottinTexas]

Thank you all for your responses. Bingofuel, my instructor did just that this week. We flew over half the runway at the "right altitude" so I could get the picture. I think I am pulling to quick on the flare rather than just slowing down and gradually flaring. As far as my speed goes I am trying to stick it right on 65kts as per the POH. I do get a little fast sometimes but I think I am afraid to actually let it get slower to avoid the stall. Maybe I am trying to land it too fast.

[Johnm]

Read "Making pefect landings in light airplanes" by Ron Fowler it's listed on Amazon.

In the meantime....... First nail the speeds, a much better pilot than you (or me) worked out what they should be. The landing sequence isn't a single event. So as you approach the touch down point you first round out and fly straight and level at very low altitude and low power. Then close the throttle and slowly pull back on the controls maintaining straight with rudder (you can worry about cross winds later) basically try not to land! Eventually the mains will touch down as the stall warner starts, then gently lower the nose wheel and keep straight as the speed bleeds off down to taxi speed and you turn off the runway and stop to do the after landing checks. Then and only then have you landed.

Hope that helps

[Flamin_Squirrel]

What aircraft you flying now? Would I be right in guessing it's got a low wing?

I've only just got my PPL but I've flown 3 different aircraft in that time, most recently the Cessna 172 and the Piper Warrior.

I flew the 172 first. The high wing results in less ground effect, combined with the comparitively heavy controls means having to haul back on the yoke a reasonable amount in the flare.

I find in the warrior with lighter controls and low wing it requires much less back pressure on the yoke, so my first attempt at landing was much as yours - flared as I did in the 172 and ended up climbing again.

I keep the approach speeds as per POH, but I think I need to bring the power back sooner, I'm sure my touch down speeds are too high. Maybe the same for you.

[Exascot]

ScottinTexas, get another instructor. And, what is all this fuss about spins? How do you recover from one if you never practice it?

sometimes on all three wheels.

Don't try a jet with 18 wheels then you may spill the gin and tonic. Get a life man

[Mimpe]

get your speed right. The last thing you want to hear is a stall warning when you are 20 feet above the runway on a hot day,so if the aircraft is ready to settle then gently ease back on the stick...as long as there is no further sign of climb as you ease back on the stick (ie you are merely slowing the rate of descent) then keep flaring down to the touch down.
I love feeling the imperceptible squeak of a really smooth landing, but anything that isnt rough on the aircraft should make you happy. Keep you standards high regarding aim and landing point, and be meticulous abut the centreline...all the effort you make to be your best when conditions are good, will come to your aid when conditions are difficult.

[ScottinTexas]

More responses! And welcomed!

1) I am flying a C172
2) I think most of my problem comes from varying speed. Not to mention the little updraft at the end of the runway near the highway interchange. It is presently very hot (102 to 104 F) and you can feel the heat as you pass over the highway. This tends to throw the plane up several feet right on close final.
3) Spins? Unless you are crazy, like the aerobatic pilots and your plane is designed for it, spins are to be avoided at all times! Honestly, I plan on taking a few hours of aerobatics in order to learn how planes get into bad situations and how to get them out. There is a school nearby which uses a bi-plane for training. I know the drill for recovering from a spin and have been read up on it. I guess I am not so scared of them as I once was. I just feel like the wings will come off if I do get into a spin. In a plane designed for it I wouldn't worry so much. But when you read the POH and there are all the warnings about too many Gs you have it anchored in your brain as "don't do this or you will die."
4) I am not quite ready to change instructors. I like and trust my instructor. My nephew, a Black Hawk pilot, has told me I should find another instructor, preferably one with military experience like he had when he got his PPL. But he is also nuts and flies too close to the ground.
5) Spilling gin and tonic is tantamount to spilling beer, which is a crime in Texas. The trick is to finish it before it is in a situation where it can be spilled.

[thing]

and flies too close to the ground.

An essential prerequisite to landing....

When I was an instructor in a blue suit I used to teach basic theory of flight etc, I was always amazed by the eager young men in the class who used to put their hand up and say 'What's the lowest flying jet in the RAF...', .........er, well son, all of them, they don't stop a hundred feet up and drop a rope ladder....

[BackPacker]

I love feeling the imperceptible squeak of a really smooth landing

We all do, and so do our passengers.

Just remember that this is not, by definition, the "right" way to land an aircraft in all occasions.

When doing a short-field landing for instance, one that's at the limits of the aircrafts performance charts, it's better to have a positive arrival at the threshold so you can hit the brakes immediately, than to hold off, float halfway down the runway and end up in the far hedge.

Likewise, in case of a crosswind landing, you will want to choose the moment of the wheels touching (and giving you directional control) instead of letting the aerodynamics choose the moment for you.

And I understand that more sophisticated types (airliners, bizjets and such) require a certain amount of weight on the wheels before things like autobrakes and spoilers are deployed.

I'm not saying that it's OK to slam the aircraft on the deck at Vref+10 or so, just that a firm landing is in some circumstances better than a greaser.

[Jan Olieslagers]

If one zillion times is not enough, take two.

Landing is difficult to learn, because it is contrary to the nature of the aircraft : it was meant to go up, not down.

Don't worry, don't bother, just train and train and train. It takes as long as it takes.

Nothing wrong in trying a different plane/school/field/instructor, though. If you do, make the try ample: in two or three circuits, you can't judge any difference from what you're used to.

[ScottinTexas]

Originally Posted by THING

An essential prerequisite to landing....

Well played, sir.

[172_driver]

A variety of ideas and theories have been shared here. I'll let you know what I think. Have done 1000+ hrs instructing in C172.

1) Landings are the hardest part to teach, because it comes down to "feel" and nothing that can be taught in words. Learning is a result of experience. You need to practice (a lot). Some people get it right the first time, some people take many sessions before they get the hang of it. They are all very fine pilots today.

2) Unless your instructor lacks patience and generally annoys you, I wouldn't be too quick to change instructor. Certainly it could be wise to fly with another one, once or twice, to get some new inputs. But it would be unfair to get rid of your instructor just because you need more practice to get the right "feel".

3) Hot days, as you describe, tend to upset the natural behavior of the aircraft. Even I can get pissed at myself when I sail through my planned touchdown point with several hundred feet. I am floating on a bubble of rising air, just waiting for the sink through to come. Eventually it will. But if too focused on your touchdown point you may force it down prematurely, with still too much lift, resulting in 3-pointers. Try an early morning or late evening flight, with less thermals?

4) To avoid pilot induced oscillations, once you've started the flare don't move the yoke forward. If your descent rate stops, hold the yoke, let the speed bleed off and once descending again apply more back pressure. Only if you get critically low on airspeed, move yoke forward and add power to prevent a quick sink.

5) Don't worry about the touchdown point until you've gotten the "feel" for the flare, as long as you've got runway remaining. That can be sorted out later.

Btw, C172 is approved for spins in utility category, at least the re-starts. Safe and legal. They are even fun to do!

[funfly]

Try NOT to land is advice often given. This of course applies when you are a few feet off the ground and not at 1000'

[Big Pistons Forever]

Poor landings are almost always the result of two faults

1) Not being in a stabilized descending attitude on short final. Far too many students chase the airspeed instead of holding the appropriate attitude. This is exacerbated by not having the aircraft in trim. The result is the nose is always nodding up and down and the lack of a consistent picture makes it hard to judge the right place to start the flare

2) looking in the wrong place in the flare. It is tempting to look right in front of the aircraft but forcing yourself to look down to the far end of the runway will always work better

Good landings come from good approaches. If I am asked to help a new pilot with landings the first thing I do is go to the practice area and practice flying a circuit with the pretend runway at 2000 feet AGL. This allows the student to concentrate on flying a, on altitude, in trim, on speed circuit without the mental pressure of the looming runway. It also is good baulked approach practice ( A under emphasized skill IMO).

My experience has been poor landings are ultimately a reflection of gaps in fundamental aircraft control skills. Until those are rectified no amount of circuits will ever fix the problem.

[ScottinTexas]

Thank you for your inputs. 172 Driver repeated what my instructor told me Wednesday. "Landing is an art that you have to practice to get right. With a few feet left you pull the yolk back and try to keep the plane off the ground. It will gradually settle nice and smooth." I think I will forget the touchdown point next week and just get the feel for the landing. Then adjust for the point. Also, I am scheduled to fly at 0800 on Wednesday so the air should be nice and calm, and cool. It is only about 90 F that early. The weather should be perfect. Of course, that depends on tropical storm Don to continue tracking West. I think your point #3 is dead on.

Silvaire1, I like your analogy to a sailboat. I have years of sailing experience and I can relate to drifting into the dock. But again, you also repeated my instructor's instruction, "stop looking at the airspeed, look all the way to the far end of the runway and keep the plane off the ground." It will land, but it should end up being nice and smooth.

Well, all of the input I have had here is greatly appreciated. One thing for certain is that my instructor has had some support. So I feel better about that end of things. I will let y'all know how it goes on Wednesday. I am really looking forward to it. But then I always look forward to flying, even when it is a battle. One day I may even be able to provide some advice for a beginner and relate back to this experience.

[foxmoth]

Good advice here, one bit I would add - do not be in a rush to land, watch a few landings and you will see most good ones round out and then spend a little time holding off before touching down rather than round out and on the ground straight away - the "try NOT to land" is one I use myself when instructing.
If you do balloon (as long as not TOO high), then just stop the back movement of the yoke/stick, as the speed drops more the aircraft will then settle again and, as it does so, you then continue the hold off.