Manchester crash reported BBC
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Airbus38
Calling for restraint?
Asking folks not to make reckless statements which can lead others to believe something which isn't true?
You're a brave man to do that in this thread.
You might get away with just being accused of cyber bullying and trying to stifle discussion but if Intercepted sees your post you'll probably be treated to a load of abuse as well.
I saw his posts before the Mods took action.
912ul
It's not an unregulated forum. It's moderated.
Calling for restraint?
Asking folks not to make reckless statements which can lead others to believe something which isn't true?
You're a brave man to do that in this thread.
You might get away with just being accused of cyber bullying and trying to stifle discussion but if Intercepted sees your post you'll probably be treated to a load of abuse as well.
I saw his posts before the Mods took action.
912ul
It's not an unregulated forum. It's moderated.
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Airbus38,
I appreciate what you are saying but I most certainly did not get this information from any random photo being released with a news report.
As I mentioned earlier, I recall somebody coming into the office where I was getting my exam marked, and telling my instructor that Romeo Mike had gone down in smoke near the runway.
As the only Ravenair operated Tomahawk that I am aware of with a registration ending in RM is G-RVRM, my assumption was a reasonable one.
Of course, it may well be the case that I am mistaken in what I remember, due to the shock of seeing what I did. But I'm pretty sure it was Romeo Mike.
I appreciate what you are saying but I most certainly did not get this information from any random photo being released with a news report.
As I mentioned earlier, I recall somebody coming into the office where I was getting my exam marked, and telling my instructor that Romeo Mike had gone down in smoke near the runway.
As the only Ravenair operated Tomahawk that I am aware of with a registration ending in RM is G-RVRM, my assumption was a reasonable one.
Of course, it may well be the case that I am mistaken in what I remember, due to the shock of seeing what I did. But I'm pretty sure it was Romeo Mike.
Fly Conventional Gear
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You might get away with just being accused of cyber bullying and trying to stifle discussion but if Intercepted sees your post you'll probably be treated to a load of abuse as well.
I saw his posts before the Mods took action.
I saw his posts before the Mods took action.
However we should still be CONSCIOUS of what we are posting and how it could be read or reported...for example the suggestion that 'so and so aircraft may have been involved' and that 'so and so aircraft had an expired CofA'...what if the press reported that?
How do you think someone from Ravenair or whoever was responsible for the aircraft would feel if they saw that suggestion reported in the press and it wasn't true? People just need to think a bit more before posting sometimes.
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The prospect of being in a cockpit filled with burning fuel is truly horrendous. Though not involved in any way, reading about this accident has disturbed me more than any other I've heard of and I'm struggling to find words which do justice to the emotions I'm feeling. Heartfelt condolences to anyone directly affected.
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The prospect of being in a cockpit filled with burning fuel is truly horrendous. Though not involved in any way, reading about this accident has disturbed me more than any other I've heard of and I'm struggling to find words which do justice to the emotions I'm feeling. Heartfelt condolences to anyone directly affected.
Sincerely hope the chap makes a full recovery.
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Sincerely hope the chap makes a full recovery.
Simon Weston was less than that.
I have reread my posts on the burns subject an I seem to be quite harsh.
I have come to the conclusion that if I do start flying avgas machines again in any amount of hours I will be getting some fire retardant clothes for the purpose. The old Instructors uniform of a pair of primark chinos and cheap white shirt really does absouletly nothing for you and in the case of the cheap white shirt will proberly make matters worse when it melts into your skin. Something which I have experence with when I brushed up against a pitot tube while doing a first flight while it was on, resulting in a 2" by 3" second degree burn on my shoulder which all the skin got ripped off removing my shirt.
Last edited by mad_jock; 5th Aug 2011 at 10:25.
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You would be better off being slightly proactive on the maintenance of the next spamcan you get into, perhaps asking when they last changed the fuel hoses 
I have read some accident reports involving fires and IMHO all were totally preventable.
One horrible one occured on a homebuilt, of a type well known for using rigid ally fuel plumbing under conditions of vibration, and the tube eventually cracks. Certified planes are a lot better built in this respect but if the rubber hoses are 30 years old, or been removed and refitted several times...
I have read some accident reports involving fires and IMHO all were totally preventable.
One horrible one occured on a homebuilt, of a type well known for using rigid ally fuel plumbing under conditions of vibration, and the tube eventually cracks. Certified planes are a lot better built in this respect but if the rubber hoses are 30 years old, or been removed and refitted several times...
Fly Conventional Gear
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I have come to the conclusion that if I do start flying avgas machines again in any amount of hours I will be getting some fire retardant clothes for the purpose. The old Instructors uniform of a pair of primark chinos and cheap white shirt really does absouletly nothing for you and in the case of the cheap white shirt will proberly make matters worse when it melts into your skin. Something which I have experence with when I brushed up against a pitot tube while doing a first flight while it was on, resulting in a 2" by 3" second degree burn on my shoulder which all the skin got ripped off removing my shirt.
What sort of fire retardant clothes would you get? Something made from leather or Nomex?
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Just good quality cotton will be way ahead than most.
If you google aero-ist clothing they have some good stuff
If I was working full time in avagas machine I would wear nomex. But its not cheap.
And another note my flight bag now has a pair of proper fire gloves ack the same ones that we have in the cockpit commercially in it.
If you google aero-ist clothing they have some good stuff
If I was working full time in avagas machine I would wear nomex. But its not cheap.
And another note my flight bag now has a pair of proper fire gloves ack the same ones that we have in the cockpit commercially in it.
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MJ I'm pleased you mentioned the wearing of cotton clothing which should be pure cotton rather than polycotton as the polyester melts. Pure wool is also good as wool is not easy to ignite. How many people bother to make any mention of suitable clothing to their passengers? About a year ago I took a friend on her first flight in a light aircraft. When she asked me if there was anything she needed to do I suggested that she wear the sort of items I have just mentioned but let her know that it was a purely precautionary measure in case of the unlikely event of a fire. She saw the sense of this and had a great time - her words.
Avoid imitations
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One material not to wear in an aviation environment is nylon.
In a fire it can cause major skin damage, as known and advised by the RAF. Even our aircrew watches which originally had a nylon strap, were suppiled with a leather "under strap" to protect the skin.
At least one major UK supplier of so called "flying clothing" (they provide free catalogues in aviation related magazines) sells 100% nylon copies of US military style nomex flying jackets. These are fashion items only and should be banned in aircraft, imho. In a previous job (helicopter SAR) I was provided with a similar one in blue, but I refused to wear it on safety grounds.
I was later justified after one of our crewman was burned whilst wearing one on a rescue job. Basically, it melted on him and began to shrink wrap him in scalding hot plastic. We got proper Nomex jackets after that.
In a fire it can cause major skin damage, as known and advised by the RAF. Even our aircrew watches which originally had a nylon strap, were suppiled with a leather "under strap" to protect the skin.
At least one major UK supplier of so called "flying clothing" (they provide free catalogues in aviation related magazines) sells 100% nylon copies of US military style nomex flying jackets. These are fashion items only and should be banned in aircraft, imho. In a previous job (helicopter SAR) I was provided with a similar one in blue, but I refused to wear it on safety grounds.
I was later justified after one of our crewman was burned whilst wearing one on a rescue job. Basically, it melted on him and began to shrink wrap him in scalding hot plastic. We got proper Nomex jackets after that.
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@Shaggy Sheep Driver
I don't think so, I'm sure I heard "romeo mike". So it would be G-RVRM.
This website is reporting it as RF
ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUL-2011 Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk G-RVRF
Pity if it was RM as I always found that the nicest one of the fleet to fly, not that that matters a jot compared to the tragedy affecting the crew and those close to them.
I don't think so, I'm sure I heard "romeo mike". So it would be G-RVRM.
This website is reporting it as RF
ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUL-2011 Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk G-RVRF
Pity if it was RM as I always found that the nicest one of the fleet to fly, not that that matters a jot compared to the tragedy affecting the crew and those close to them.
!!
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My view is that if you really expect your plane to burst into flames at any time, you should stay on the ground.
Wearing fireproof clothing will do you sod-all good when the cockpit fills with fumes, which will prob99 happen long before you get any flames. Are you going to wear a hood with an air bottle on the back of it as well?
Planes don't just catch fire in the air on a routine basis. On the extremely rare occassions they do that, it is normally the result of shameful maintenance practices (assisted by the equally shameful European regulatory regime which for the most part sells job creation under a "safety" wrapper), and occassionally (on non-CofA planes) the result of stupid design.
Wearing fireproof clothing will do you sod-all good when the cockpit fills with fumes, which will prob99 happen long before you get any flames. Are you going to wear a hood with an air bottle on the back of it as well?
Planes don't just catch fire in the air on a routine basis. On the extremely rare occassions they do that, it is normally the result of shameful maintenance practices (assisted by the equally shameful European regulatory regime which for the most part sells job creation under a "safety" wrapper), and occassionally (on non-CofA planes) the result of stupid design.
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Planes don't just catch fire in the air on a routine basis
I don't know if you've ever seen a serious burn victim close-up. I have - trust me, it's not a pretty sight.
Avoid imitations
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Wearing fireproof clothing will do you sod-all good when the cockpit fills with fumes, which will prob99 happen long before you get any flames. Are you going to wear a hood with an air bottle on the back of it as well?
No, I've never felt the need to wear a smoke hood. I would carry out the fumes in the cockpit drill, jettison my cockpit door if necessary then land after a sideslip descent, asap. In any case, a smoke hood is no good if you cannot see out of it, blinded by smoke.
My employer provides polyester based uniform items. I usually wear my own, more expensive woollen based trousers instead, and a pure wool jumper of my own choice over my shirt.
One further thing I would feel more comfortable with is a protective helmet with a double visor. Unfortunately it would possibly make the passengers feel insecure, so we don't wear them in our specific line of work.
These are personal choices based on risk assessment of the environment I fly in and referring back to previous accident reports and from my own personal experiences.
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no need to be patronising or sarcastic
But I stand by the words of what I say. I wouldn't climb into some old heap like that. On my plane, I know the hoses are tight, are Teflon, firesleeved, 1500 PSI tested. Actually I sourced them myself from Saywells and assembled the flow totaliser plumbing myself (prior to inspection by an IA obviously) with the correct sealants and correctly torqued. The whole lot is inspected with a torch on every preflight; one can just see the fuel hoses through a gap underneath.
OK, I realise that instructors, not to mention PPL students, have little choice but to fly in all kinds of junk which they cannot visually inspect under the cowling, but data shows it is still very very rare to get an in-flight fire, especially one which penetrates the firewall and extends into the cockpit.
You are more likely to get a mid-air collision. A couple of those a year...
A good point about "commercial pilot" clothing. I had a look at this recently (because one of the non-UK JAA IR options I looked at mandates the wearing of the full Col Gaddafi uniform despite the temperatures down there; they even suggested I wear four bars because I already have a CPL, hey ho) so cotton is desirable, but seems hard to find. I thought that buying a white shirt and black trousers from a normal shop might be the easiest way to get cotton.
If I do pursue that IR option I will delight in setting fire to the nylon when I am done so I will be able to report on how well it went. Might even put it on Youtube