Manchester crash reported BBC
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I agree with you 912ul, and my comment about FL's post stems from what you are describing. In a court room I would obviously have full respect for who he is and his vast experience, but on an anonymous rumour network my respect for him is the same as for anyone else. In my opinion, FL's comment about Stewemaths post was one step to far, but of course I should have known who FL was and kept quiet.
Last edited by Intercepted; 3rd Aug 2011 at 07:42.
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Marshalls of Cambridge and Cambridge City Council. Little Gransden and Cambridge County Council. Is there a conclusion to be drawn in terms of scale?
As ever, if you don't like your council you can always vote for someone else.
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When it is known that posts made on this forum are sometimes quoted in the wider media claiming to represent the GA community at large, then those making those posts need to take care with what they say.
What concerns me about this is that Joe Bloggs who has nothing whatsoever to do with GA may now think that it is normal practice for pilots to go looking for the nearest 'wide and long' road when their engine goes.
What concerns me about this is that Joe Bloggs who has nothing whatsoever to do with GA may now think that it is normal practice for pilots to go looking for the nearest 'wide and long' road when their engine goes.
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Pilot DAR:
Stewmath doesn't hold a pilots licence of any sort and never has.
He hopes to obtain a PPL some time in the future if/when he can afford to do so.
H.
a person of stewmath's modest (or unknown, 'cause I have no idea) knowledge
He hopes to obtain a PPL some time in the future if/when he can afford to do so.
H.
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Whether Stewmath has a licence or not is completely irrelevant. This Site does not require you to validate your credentials as having anything other than an interest in aviation.
This Site is a typical example of the stereotypical attitudes that exist in aviation in the UK. Too many people have an over inflated opinion as to their own value, the value and relevence of their postings and what it really means in the wider world.
Anyone on this Site can have an opinion about anything because the rules allow that. No one who is a normal member of this Site has a right to stifle or moderate postings by other Members and Members stay Members as long as they abide by the T&Cs of the Site.
Once again - credentials are NOT required and have NEVER been required and anyone is entitled to speculate about anything because this is a Rumour Network. If any Jouno quotes from this Site then they are just stupid and at the end of the day - so what?
This Site is a typical example of the stereotypical attitudes that exist in aviation in the UK. Too many people have an over inflated opinion as to their own value, the value and relevence of their postings and what it really means in the wider world.
Anyone on this Site can have an opinion about anything because the rules allow that. No one who is a normal member of this Site has a right to stifle or moderate postings by other Members and Members stay Members as long as they abide by the T&Cs of the Site.
Once again - credentials are NOT required and have NEVER been required and anyone is entitled to speculate about anything because this is a Rumour Network. If any Jouno quotes from this Site then they are just stupid and at the end of the day - so what?
Well said 912.
Anyone who has flown an aircraft will know that a domestic road never looks wide enough to land on! In an emergency, any hole that you can put the fuselage into is fair game however, pilots instinctively try to avoid buildings because they are big and hard, and all to often the aircraft takes charge leaving them no choice! Airspeed is everything until impact.
Anyone who has flown an aircraft will know that a domestic road never looks wide enough to land on! In an emergency, any hole that you can put the fuselage into is fair game however, pilots instinctively try to avoid buildings because they are big and hard, and all to often the aircraft takes charge leaving them no choice! Airspeed is everything until impact.
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I can see where FL is coming from but I think his post is much over-simplified.
The press has a duty to not only blindly report what they read elsewhere but to do due diligence on the source.
To quote a pilot forum is no better than to run a piece on the level of teenage drug addiction by quoting threads from Mumsnet. Or by trawling Faceb00k where kids open their innermost souls to the whole world, especially the dumb ones which don't know how to secure their profile.
The press is for the most part of poor quality. In cases where one happens to be familiar with the background, the reporting is usually found to be so far off it is laughable. In the 1980s I did a few slightly dodgy but highly provocative things with an XR3i (wheelspins, etc) and the resulting court case (in which a policeman should have been jailed for perjury, but hey those were the good olde dayz before the CPS came along, when you could "teach a lesson" or three and generally take the p*ss, where the chairman of the bench has been picked up for speeding in front of the Beechams factory entrance but let off when he openly told the copper who he was) was misreported in the local rags so badly I considered suing them but a solicitor told me I would only get a few k and an apology - IF I had a transcript of the case which obviously I did not. I still have the full-page article here
I have seen this crap reporting over and over. Local-rag journos are the lowest of the low (for the most part they don't give a damn what they write) but some of the big ones like the Daily Mail are not much better.
Then you get the people who write on this and the other pilot forums. If you read the place regularly, and you are pilot yourself, you get an idea of who knows what they are talking about, but journos are not going to do that. Most just dive in when there has been a crash, to see what copy they can harvest. As any university lecturer will tell you (my GF is one) plagiarism off internet sources is the absolute norm these days.
Then you get people on here who write apparently good stuff but actually they make it up as they go along. They can be very hard to spot. A really keen simmer can talk very convincingly - for quite a while.
Then you get people on here who do walk the walk allright but they have an axe to grind. Most people who work in aviation have an axe to grind in certain issues e.g. instructors, airline pilots, ATCOs, maintenance company owners, etc. Most of these have a lot to contribute on specific issues within their expertise but when something goes badly wrong and the direction of blame is fairly apparent, a lot of rank-closing takes place. All the regulatory/enforcement/control/military types tend to close ranks faster than you can type a sentence; it is a centuries-old tradition.
Everybody is learning continuously in this game and we have to be patient with novices. PPL training is mostly still steeped in WW1 and does not prepare anybody for seriously flying from A to B in the modern context. All pilots I know who fly seriously have learnt most of what they know from other pilots, and in the last decade or so off the internet. Pilot forums are not what they were 10 years ago (a general decline across the board on quality internet participation) but they are still the #1 information resource for pilots hoping to progress. Just because somebody doesn't have a PPL yet should not disqualify them from posting here. There are people on here with much bigger qualifications who don't have those qualifications, or don't have them until years later.
Lack of anonymity is no solution. It just makes for a banal shoe-licking site where matters like flight in icing conditions, effects of icing, weather strategies, you name it, cannot be discussed, which drastically reduces the value of any such site. Making it a "private forum" is pointless since anybody can pay up and join and read all past posts, and then threaten to sue, etc. I've seen that too. When the owner of one such forum asked me to change my ID to a full name I said OK but only if he deletes all my postings to date. He backed off. And anyway nothing stops somebody making up a name; I know of people posting on the Socata owners site who I know personally, whose name is unusual enough, and who just call themselves Smith or whatever. The most educational posts cannot be posted under a real name.
The press has a duty to not only blindly report what they read elsewhere but to do due diligence on the source.
To quote a pilot forum is no better than to run a piece on the level of teenage drug addiction by quoting threads from Mumsnet. Or by trawling Faceb00k where kids open their innermost souls to the whole world, especially the dumb ones which don't know how to secure their profile.
The press is for the most part of poor quality. In cases where one happens to be familiar with the background, the reporting is usually found to be so far off it is laughable. In the 1980s I did a few slightly dodgy but highly provocative things with an XR3i (wheelspins, etc) and the resulting court case (in which a policeman should have been jailed for perjury, but hey those were the good olde dayz before the CPS came along, when you could "teach a lesson" or three and generally take the p*ss, where the chairman of the bench has been picked up for speeding in front of the Beechams factory entrance but let off when he openly told the copper who he was) was misreported in the local rags so badly I considered suing them but a solicitor told me I would only get a few k and an apology - IF I had a transcript of the case which obviously I did not. I still have the full-page article here
I have seen this crap reporting over and over. Local-rag journos are the lowest of the low (for the most part they don't give a damn what they write) but some of the big ones like the Daily Mail are not much better.Then you get the people who write on this and the other pilot forums. If you read the place regularly, and you are pilot yourself, you get an idea of who knows what they are talking about, but journos are not going to do that. Most just dive in when there has been a crash, to see what copy they can harvest. As any university lecturer will tell you (my GF is one) plagiarism off internet sources is the absolute norm these days.
Then you get people on here who write apparently good stuff but actually they make it up as they go along. They can be very hard to spot. A really keen simmer can talk very convincingly - for quite a while.
Then you get people on here who do walk the walk allright but they have an axe to grind. Most people who work in aviation have an axe to grind in certain issues e.g. instructors, airline pilots, ATCOs, maintenance company owners, etc. Most of these have a lot to contribute on specific issues within their expertise but when something goes badly wrong and the direction of blame is fairly apparent, a lot of rank-closing takes place. All the regulatory/enforcement/control/military types tend to close ranks faster than you can type a sentence; it is a centuries-old tradition.
Everybody is learning continuously in this game and we have to be patient with novices. PPL training is mostly still steeped in WW1 and does not prepare anybody for seriously flying from A to B in the modern context. All pilots I know who fly seriously have learnt most of what they know from other pilots, and in the last decade or so off the internet. Pilot forums are not what they were 10 years ago (a general decline across the board on quality internet participation) but they are still the #1 information resource for pilots hoping to progress. Just because somebody doesn't have a PPL yet should not disqualify them from posting here. There are people on here with much bigger qualifications who don't have those qualifications, or don't have them until years later.
Lack of anonymity is no solution. It just makes for a banal shoe-licking site where matters like flight in icing conditions, effects of icing, weather strategies, you name it, cannot be discussed, which drastically reduces the value of any such site. Making it a "private forum" is pointless since anybody can pay up and join and read all past posts, and then threaten to sue, etc. I've seen that too. When the owner of one such forum asked me to change my ID to a full name I said OK but only if he deletes all my postings to date. He backed off. And anyway nothing stops somebody making up a name; I know of people posting on the Socata owners site who I know personally, whose name is unusual enough, and who just call themselves Smith or whatever. The most educational posts cannot be posted under a real name.
Last edited by IO540; 3rd Aug 2011 at 08:20.
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Is it any wonder UK General Aviation gets shafted by every conceivable regulatory body imaginable - I mean we virtually, lie down, roll over and ask for it.
Here we are on an unregulated, rumour inspired, forum and people who should know better are doing their damnest to stifle others, moderate posts because of "perceived issues" and generally add their perception of forum "regulation" where there is none wanted or needed.
This is why GA is so much in the doldrums in this country - we virtually ask to be regulated to death and those in heirarchy do their utmost to make sure those of lesser aptitudes suffer even greater regulation - for our own good of course.
Stewmath has now deleted his perfectly acceptable post. It did not infringe any part of the T & C's of this Site yet the senior posters have cyber bullied him into retraction. The fault was not his - it was the lunatic journo. Stewmath had every right to post what he did and no one on this Site had a right to bully him. Just who is out of order? Certainly NOT Stewmath - is cyber bullying under the guise of thinly disguised criticism allowed in the T&C's of this Site?
Here we are on an unregulated, rumour inspired, forum and people who should know better are doing their damnest to stifle others, moderate posts because of "perceived issues" and generally add their perception of forum "regulation" where there is none wanted or needed.
This is why GA is so much in the doldrums in this country - we virtually ask to be regulated to death and those in heirarchy do their utmost to make sure those of lesser aptitudes suffer even greater regulation - for our own good of course.
Stewmath has now deleted his perfectly acceptable post. It did not infringe any part of the T & C's of this Site yet the senior posters have cyber bullied him into retraction. The fault was not his - it was the lunatic journo. Stewmath had every right to post what he did and no one on this Site had a right to bully him. Just who is out of order? Certainly NOT Stewmath - is cyber bullying under the guise of thinly disguised criticism allowed in the T&C's of this Site?
As 912ul says:
They are still going to make up the usual "hero pilot struggled with the controls to miss the school" cr@p without any encouragement - or knowledge.
Perhaps the site should also contain a warning to journalists about the potential inaccuracy in quoting from it - but then, they probably don't care.
stewmath - take no notice, nobody will remember what was written in that rag by the day after.
2 s
If any Jouno quotes from this Site then they are just stupid and at the end of the day - so what?
Perhaps the site should also contain a warning to journalists about the potential inaccuracy in quoting from it - but then, they probably don't care.
stewmath - take no notice, nobody will remember what was written in that rag by the day after.
2 s
Last edited by 2 sheds; 3rd Aug 2011 at 13:17. Reason: cr@p spelling
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Was going to comment, but the following
applies to anybody with plenty left to learn, like me.
So best I keep quiet
Damn, was that an opinion............................. ?
On reflection, you may think that, at your stage, it would be wiser to read, learn and ask questions rather than post opinions.
So best I keep quiet
Damn, was that an opinion............................. ?
Moderator
I feel badly for stewmeth that he/she is the poster child for a quote run amok, but stuff happens. Fortunately for stewmeth, the passage itself, was (as has been pointed out) very benign, and as such stewmeth has nothing to feel badly about. It's the journalist who bears responsibility on this one.
When I first started participating here, I took very seriously the words in red at the bottom of the page. PPRuNe was my first (and so far only) participation in such forums, so I really did not know the etiquette. Those words remain very wise.
Regulation:
I am told it was Douglas Bader (a fellow who knew lots about flying) who said:
"Regulation is for the guidance of wise men, and obedience of fools."
Now I'm now calling anyone here a fool, but I have come to learn that the "common masses" seem to expect everything that they think is potentially unsafe, or difficult to understand, to be regulated by somebody. I believe that this is entirely reactive, as regulation seems to suddenly be needed after something has gone wrong.
If we prevent things going wrong without regulation, there will be less regulation, or at least less enforcement....
When I first started participating here, I took very seriously the words in red at the bottom of the page. PPRuNe was my first (and so far only) participation in such forums, so I really did not know the etiquette. Those words remain very wise.
Regulation:
This is why GA is so much in the doldrums in this country - we virtually ask to be regulated to death and those in heirarchy do their utmost to make sure those of lesser aptitudes suffer even greater regulation - for our own good of course.
"Regulation is for the guidance of wise men, and obedience of fools."
Now I'm now calling anyone here a fool, but I have come to learn that the "common masses" seem to expect everything that they think is potentially unsafe, or difficult to understand, to be regulated by somebody. I believe that this is entirely reactive, as regulation seems to suddenly be needed after something has gone wrong.
If we prevent things going wrong without regulation, there will be less regulation, or at least less enforcement....
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I am told it was Douglas Bader (a fellow who knew lots about flying) who said
To be honest stewmeths comment could have very well be true if there was nothing else going.
Stew dinna worry. It was an opnion that an experenced pilot could have held if they saw what you did. The unfortunate thing is the more experence you have the more you realise to not voice those opnions because as soon as you stick you head up and do, then everyone else takes great joy about shooting them down.
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The unfortunate thing is the more experence you have the more you realise to not voice those opnions because as soon as you stick you head up and do, then everyone else takes great joy about shooting them down.
One type that use facts and good reasoning to prove their point and another type that spend an awful lot of time to describe to others how extremely experienced they are and use this perceived experience in an attempt to stifle others.
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One type that use facts and good reasoning to prove their point and another type that spend an awful lot of time to describe to others how extremely experienced they are and use this perceived experience in an attempt to stifle others.
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I doudt it with 60% burns they are touch and go for about a month until they can get some skin grafts on.
At any point they can get an infection and thats it in the space of a couple of hours.
At any point they can get an infection and thats it in the space of a couple of hours.
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I did a 4-day first aid course some years back, and the man giving it was from WYMAS. When we were discussing burns he said that for adults, if the sum of the age and percentage burnt is 100% or more the outlook is very grim - it also depends where the burns are, and if the airway and lungs are affected. So, sadly, it was no surprise when the older man died. The younger man is 20 with 60% so his chances are much better, but it will be a long haul and will affect him for the rest of his life. 