French airspace regulation for foreigners
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Where in the ICAO agreement does it say that ? Are you inferring that, by obliging their AF pilots to speak French in French airspace, or by imposiing French A/A at some godforsaken municipal airport they are violating ICAO ?
I always heard ICAO recognises English, Russian and French languages?
Great for us Brits who have by and large have the foriegn linguistic capability of a Brussel Sprout, but a little more difficult for the rest of the world!!
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But complaining about those who are using the ICAO compliant language is a little brass necked.
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I agree. But then it is no more brass necked than claiming that an ICAO compliant flight crew license does not suffice to fly an airplane registered in that very same ICAO state in your airspace.
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I agree. But then it is no more brass necked than claiming that an ICAO compliant flight crew license does not suffice to fly an airplane registered in that very same ICAO state in your airspace.
Infact like the Japanese copying cars we would only have to tinker with a tried and tested one to save even more money.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Jul 2011 at 14:58.
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Jan,
It's contained in the ICAO agreement. Go look it up. Google is your friend.
Start with amendment 164 to Annex 1......
It's contained in the ICAO agreement. Go look it up. Google is your friend.
Start with amendment 164 to Annex 1......
Last edited by S-Works; 14th Jul 2011 at 15:37.
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I was caught out momentarily in France recently when my callsign, which includes 'Juliet,' was pronounced Shooliet by the French air trafficer. Huh? Was that for me?
I thought that the whole point of the phonetic alphabet was that it could not be pronounced in several different ways?
I thought that the whole point of the phonetic alphabet was that it could not be pronounced in several different ways?
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What I am saying is that there is an ICAO agreement that English is the language of aviation.
I don't think any of the French only airfields are open to international aviation (except for Schengen countries which operate to other rules).
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DP, I think you are interpreting the agreements to your own end.
My understanding by International is not the arrival of a flight internationally but rather by International crews. Specifically it refers to the holder of an ICAO compliant licence travelling internationally is required to hold at least a Level 4 in English. It does not state that if the holder of an ICAO licence is expected to speak the local language of the flight starts and finishes in the same country.
A German pilot for example flying into/intra France should expect to use ICAO compliant language which is English. If they speak French then they are permitted to use French if they want.
My understanding by International is not the arrival of a flight internationally but rather by International crews. Specifically it refers to the holder of an ICAO compliant licence travelling internationally is required to hold at least a Level 4 in English. It does not state that if the holder of an ICAO licence is expected to speak the local language of the flight starts and finishes in the same country.
A German pilot for example flying into/intra France should expect to use ICAO compliant language which is English. If they speak French then they are permitted to use French if they want.
Fly Conventional Gear
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It's a very human reaction. French is, as an international language, in decline. This makes them extremely defensive. In Quebec, the situation is exacerbated by their minority status in Canada.
Similar things happen for other languagues in higher education across Europe, when proposals are launched to teach certain undergraduate courses in English. Although for some specialised topics this would indeed make sense, it is politically a nono.
Similar things happen for other languagues in higher education across Europe, when proposals are launched to teach certain undergraduate courses in English. Although for some specialised topics this would indeed make sense, it is politically a nono.
What frustrates me about all that is that French is such a good language anyway, and I don't think it is really is under threat as such, all languages evolve and pick up bits from others...there really is no reason for the French authorities to be concerned about its survival...yes it maybe in decline in the sense that it is not used legally or diplomatically any more but I really can't see it disappearing any time soon!
If my student had been alone, he wouldn't have understood a single word; besides it would have been the case of many licenced pilots I know.
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Bose,
I was more thinking of the example of a German speaking pilot flying in Germany or a French speaking pilot flying in France. As I understand the new rules, if they can't speak English to the required level they can continue to fly domestically but can't fly internationally.
In any case, you and I are lucky in that English is not a problem for us. We are simply lucky that English is the language chosen. Imagine if Chineese had been selected as the language! We'd not only have to learn a new language, but also a new way of reading/writing. Do they even call the Chinese equilivant an alphabet?
We should be more considerate of those who can't speak English. I have little sympathy with the notion that a French man who can only speak French can't fly from his local airstrip, incase Johnney forigner wants to fly into the same airfield.
If history was just a little different most of us would have a different first language, and English would not be the international language.
dp
I was more thinking of the example of a German speaking pilot flying in Germany or a French speaking pilot flying in France. As I understand the new rules, if they can't speak English to the required level they can continue to fly domestically but can't fly internationally.
In any case, you and I are lucky in that English is not a problem for us. We are simply lucky that English is the language chosen. Imagine if Chineese had been selected as the language! We'd not only have to learn a new language, but also a new way of reading/writing. Do they even call the Chinese equilivant an alphabet?
We should be more considerate of those who can't speak English. I have little sympathy with the notion that a French man who can only speak French can't fly from his local airstrip, incase Johnney forigner wants to fly into the same airfield.
If history was just a little different most of us would have a different first language, and English would not be the international language.
dp
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There is no reason at all for French pilots to use English for RT in their own country, just as there is no reason for Argentines or Brazilians to use it in their countries.
ICAO is quite clear on where English profiency is required:
"Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."
ICAO is quite clear on where English profiency is required:
"Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."
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I gave amendment 164 as the starting point. Go look the rest up.......
However you are right, French pilots do not need to speak English when inside France. However, neither do visiting pilots need to speak French either under ICAO. Go figure that one......
However you are right, French pilots do not need to speak English when inside France. However, neither do visiting pilots need to speak French either under ICAO. Go figure that one......
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First of all: English is not my first language (but German)...
Secondly I do not agree with most of you.
As pilots we feel the urge to control highly complex vehicles in a very thin medium with very little tolerance for mistakes... it is about risk management... and communication is a key factor for our safety!
Apparently we are able to learn the handling of our aircraft plus a few thousand pages of EASA theory stuff... but we are unable to get an ICAO L4 and learn the few basic phrases which are required to report a position in the circuit? ...
Yeahh.. way to hard!
On the other hand I can hardly believe there are Pilots out there who really can't imaging what a simple phrase like "XYZ turning downwind/base/final RWY27.." means... but frankly I have no experience in flying in france/spain/italy (yet).
cheers
maehhh
Secondly I do not agree with most of you.
As pilots we feel the urge to control highly complex vehicles in a very thin medium with very little tolerance for mistakes... it is about risk management... and communication is a key factor for our safety!
Apparently we are able to learn the handling of our aircraft plus a few thousand pages of EASA theory stuff... but we are unable to get an ICAO L4 and learn the few basic phrases which are required to report a position in the circuit? ...
Yeahh.. way to hard!
On the other hand I can hardly believe there are Pilots out there who really can't imaging what a simple phrase like "XYZ turning downwind/base/final RWY27.." means... but frankly I have no experience in flying in france/spain/italy (yet).
cheers
maehhh
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I gave amendment 164 as the starting point. Go look the rest up.......
However you are right, French pilots do not need to speak English when inside France. However, neither do visiting pilots need to speak French either under ICAO. Go figure that one......
However you are right, French pilots do not need to speak English when inside France. However, neither do visiting pilots need to speak French either under ICAO. Go figure that one......
"Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."
French regulations are not in conflict with ICAO, as airfield plates specify "French only" where necessary.
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You can bitch as much as you want about the regulation enforcing a particular non-English language at non-controlled (sometimes non-AFIS) airfields in France (and other countries, e.g., Germany), but please note that Le Bigleux has stressed that he is making his point primarily on safety grounds: yours and that of other airmen, with which I can only concur.
You will find that the French are very accommodating to visitors and will let you get away with things that would earn you a serious talking-to if you were a local--in particular, they will try their best to ensure everyone's safety when a rosbif comes in on the frequency, either by switching to English if able, or by getting out of the way until the blissful foreigner has landed, but you are not making yourself, or your own national aviation community, to look good by abusing their hospitality.
Also keep in mind that France has a long and popular general aviation culture, which is also very accessible--meaning that it is not only the educated, English-speaking elites that partake of this hobby, hence why it is my personal belief that the FR-only restriction on local aerodromes is genuinely in the interests of safety (as opposed to, say, the chauvinistic refusal by politicians and a minority ATCO union in the 90s to make CDG English-only, against the advice of the BEA, the DGAC, Air France, and pretty much everyone else).
As an example of the sort of misguided, perhaps even inconsiderate sort of attitude that will not earn you any respect in France (or elsewhere for that matter), please allow me to quote a previous message:
Except that you will have previously read the AIP entry for that particular airfield and likely found out that take-offs and landings are restricted during lunch hours, precisely so that people can have their meal in peace. Again, they tend to tolerate this from foreigners, but they'll still think you're a cretin.
As for Bose's comments, they are grossly misguided (or just having a troll? apologies if so), as evidenced by Mr. Walker. In any event, they are out of place as the OPs makes it clear that his admonishment is not about regulations, but about safety. I'm also confused as to what any of this has to do with licence proficiency checks and jumping through hoops?
You will find that the French are very accommodating to visitors and will let you get away with things that would earn you a serious talking-to if you were a local--in particular, they will try their best to ensure everyone's safety when a rosbif comes in on the frequency, either by switching to English if able, or by getting out of the way until the blissful foreigner has landed, but you are not making yourself, or your own national aviation community, to look good by abusing their hospitality.
Also keep in mind that France has a long and popular general aviation culture, which is also very accessible--meaning that it is not only the educated, English-speaking elites that partake of this hobby, hence why it is my personal belief that the FR-only restriction on local aerodromes is genuinely in the interests of safety (as opposed to, say, the chauvinistic refusal by politicians and a minority ATCO union in the 90s to make CDG English-only, against the advice of the BEA, the DGAC, Air France, and pretty much everyone else).
As an example of the sort of misguided, perhaps even inconsiderate sort of attitude that will not earn you any respect in France (or elsewhere for that matter), please allow me to quote a previous message:
As for Bose's comments, they are grossly misguided (or just having a troll? apologies if so), as evidenced by Mr. Walker. In any event, they are out of place as the OPs makes it clear that his admonishment is not about regulations, but about safety. I'm also confused as to what any of this has to do with licence proficiency checks and jumping through hoops?
