Shoreham Incident.
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IO540, a Vx climb and then trim forward - novel. 
I think you need a word with your old instructor. In RAF parlance Select, Hold, Trim - in civilian speak, Attitude, Power, Trim.
I think you need a word with your old instructor. In RAF parlance Select, Hold, Trim - in civilian speak, Attitude, Power, Trim.
But I am sure you get my point.
Contributers are now aware of UK circuit procedure.
For the case in point, using the debris sites photographs and the low 5 kt wind, a (say) 90kt collision at ~1000 ft. could allow the broken propeller to travel perhaps 1/4 mile.
But the end of runway 20 is at least double that distance away, which implies impact occurred whilst the climbing a/c was already on his crosswind leg.
This suggests the Vans pilot followed correct procedure - taking off he'd turn left at ~500 ft in a climbing turn to continue to circuit height where he could leave (or rejoin the circuit). The joining a/c lost its prop. when striking the Vans from behind in its pilot's blind spot.
Ergo neither pilot was aware of the others likely proximity despite ATC radio ?
For the case in point, using the debris sites photographs and the low 5 kt wind, a (say) 90kt collision at ~1000 ft. could allow the broken propeller to travel perhaps 1/4 mile.
But the end of runway 20 is at least double that distance away, which implies impact occurred whilst the climbing a/c was already on his crosswind leg.
This suggests the Vans pilot followed correct procedure - taking off he'd turn left at ~500 ft in a climbing turn to continue to circuit height where he could leave (or rejoin the circuit). The joining a/c lost its prop. when striking the Vans from behind in its pilot's blind spot.
Ergo neither pilot was aware of the others likely proximity despite ATC radio ?
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This suggests the Vans pilot followed correct procedure - taking off he'd turn left at ~500 ft in a climbing turn to continue to circuit height where he could leave (or rejoin the circuit).
Surely, departing traffic should fly on the runway heading, over the numbers, and then a bit further, so it can then continue its climb on an easterly or westerly track without the risk of hitting crosswind traffic from underneath. In such a conflict, neither would see the other.
Fair point about situational awareness by listening to the radio but this is of limited value because
- a lot of pilots misreport their location
- a lot of pilots don't report their location
- often one cannot make a report if somebody is making a long call
- some pilots lie about their position (report a position more advanced than their actual one) to get a clearance to a particular join
Personally, I fly a long way out over the sea, on roughly the runway heading, before climbing anywhere near circuit height.
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I am not going to post what the word is around Shoreham but at least we will find out for sure when the report comes out, because it will be easy to establish where the DA40 was and how high it was. A pity it is going to take a long time.
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Jetblu
You'd better explain what blue line means as many of the non MEP rated won't understand Vmca!
But 118 - that is quite a hot-ship.
No comment on the tragic accident at Shoreham, save to say it was tragic.
Stik
You'd better explain what blue line means as many of the non MEP rated won't understand Vmca!
But 118 - that is quite a hot-ship.
No comment on the tragic accident at Shoreham, save to say it was tragic.
Stik
The only thing circuit wise that frustrates me here in the UK (North Weald excluded 
) is one could have 3/4 sometimes more C152/PA28 in the circuit, crosswind/downwind etc. As I join, I am notified automatically that I am No 5 
It seems here it is a first come, first served basis despite a/c speed.
) is one could have 3/4 sometimes more C152/PA28 in the circuit, crosswind/downwind etc. As I join, I am notified automatically that I am No 5 It seems here it is a first come, first served basis despite a/c speed.
You need to clarify to what service you are relating this comment. If an ATC service, then certainly any significant speed difference could be taken into account to get the best overall sequence but very often pilots overestimate their ability to safely overtake slightly slower traffic ahead. I do not understand how you can exclude - i.e. compliment - North Weald in this respect as that aerodrome only provides AGCS.
2 s
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memories of px - best glide of an RV-6 is around 80 kts. A bit variable given many variations of engines, props and equipment (ie weights, CofG and drag of props) - though the wings are all the same shape...
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In the context of this thread I don't see any difference between ATC and AG/AFIS.
After ATC has cleared somebody to takeoff, and cleared somebody else to join "crosswind", those two planes are on their own.
The former is totally on his own and provided he does not climb too rapidly he can reasonably expect his departure to be below other traffic. ATC can't assist him with that anyway.
The latter is responsible for slotting himself into downwind traffic, and likewise ATC can't assist him with that.
If ATC do more than that (e.g. delaying takeoff clearances to aircraft known to be rejoining the circuit, if somebody is being cleared crosswind) then I stand to be corrected, but I have never noticed anything like that.
I agree that this was an accident waiting to happen because so many people join "crosswind" way outside the upwind numbers, and even a PA28-140 can climb to circuit height in that distance.
After ATC has cleared somebody to takeoff, and cleared somebody else to join "crosswind", those two planes are on their own.
The former is totally on his own and provided he does not climb too rapidly he can reasonably expect his departure to be below other traffic. ATC can't assist him with that anyway.
The latter is responsible for slotting himself into downwind traffic, and likewise ATC can't assist him with that.
If ATC do more than that (e.g. delaying takeoff clearances to aircraft known to be rejoining the circuit, if somebody is being cleared crosswind) then I stand to be corrected, but I have never noticed anything like that.
I agree that this was an accident waiting to happen because so many people join "crosswind" way outside the upwind numbers, and even a PA28-140 can climb to circuit height in that distance.
Moderator
Blueline - is a critical speed for safe flight should any one engine fail.
Blueline = Vyse = best rate of climb single engine
Low speed Redline = Vmca = minimum control speed with one engine inoperative.
I would agree that flying a circuit much below blueline is not ideal, but it is safely possible. If you're flying something fast in the circuit with somethings slow, some adjustment to the circuit is going to be needed. I'm sure it's a no no to pass in the circuit, so, yes, first come first served!
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The latter is responsible for slotting himself into downwind traffic, and likewise ATC can't assist him with that.
In any case, the way I see it is that the OHJ creates no less than three areas of conflict where you might encounter traffic on a 90 degree or more collision course. First in the overhead itself, then when crossing upwind, and then joining downwind. Any other kind of join only has one - the place where you join the circuit. And considering that the downwind leg is the longest circuit leg, thus giving the best opportunity to spot other traffic and slotting in neatly behind, I know what sort of join I prefer...
Backpacker,
'Normally' it may make a logical - if you ask & it's approved by ATC - alternative. However where lots of traffic it reduces your time to assess traffic & for others already in the circuit to back off to let you barge in.
On non-radio or advisory when say arriving for the Popham Air Fair, everyone is reminded to do the OHJ. It's hairy at times when folk disregard it - and they do - but the bulk of arrivals of all sorts of a/c speeds can & do slot in with adjustments made early enough to accomodate these matters.
OHJ may be flawed but it works when very busy, provided cleverer pilots don't decide to do something else.
'Normally' it may make a logical - if you ask & it's approved by ATC - alternative. However where lots of traffic it reduces your time to assess traffic & for others already in the circuit to back off to let you barge in.
On non-radio or advisory when say arriving for the Popham Air Fair, everyone is reminded to do the OHJ. It's hairy at times when folk disregard it - and they do - but the bulk of arrivals of all sorts of a/c speeds can & do slot in with adjustments made early enough to accomodate these matters.
OHJ may be flawed but it works when very busy, provided cleverer pilots don't decide to do something else.
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This thread started off as a report into a tradgic accident, we have now heard 100's of ways on how to fly the perfect circuit and understand that everyone has seen evidence that this does't always happen.
I have to say that many instructors dont even teach the correct circuit, particulary at Shoreham, I should know as I am a Shoreham instructor and Exaiminer and see examples of this on a regular basis.
Shoreham has a published procedure, guess what, it should be followed.
Do people make up their own instrument approach - NO cause it will kill them, so why are we talking about all the ways we could join a circuit, Shoreham has a published procedure so USE IT, failure to do so may KILL someone.
Now we have people stating that there are rumours abound at Shoreham about what happen, again its an airfield, everyone knows everything, there are far to many bar room experts.
The DA40 survived, they were lucky, lets see what the GPS info provides, lets look at the Gatwick and Farnborugh Radar trace and see what happened, i suspect they already have and know who was in the wrong.
From the Maps and debris shown I think its obvious where the fault lies but I am not a Bar Room Expert.
All I know is accidents never just happen, its a chain of avoidable events, this is why we should teach the PPL students to a high standard and as examiniers be firm in reminding people to LOOKOUT and follow the RULEs. Flying should be fun, it should also be safe, follow the rules and procedures and it will be.
RANT OVER!!!
Happy flying, LOOKOUT, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
RIP Alan Weald.
I have to say that many instructors dont even teach the correct circuit, particulary at Shoreham, I should know as I am a Shoreham instructor and Exaiminer and see examples of this on a regular basis.
Shoreham has a published procedure, guess what, it should be followed.
Do people make up their own instrument approach - NO cause it will kill them, so why are we talking about all the ways we could join a circuit, Shoreham has a published procedure so USE IT, failure to do so may KILL someone.
Now we have people stating that there are rumours abound at Shoreham about what happen, again its an airfield, everyone knows everything, there are far to many bar room experts.
The DA40 survived, they were lucky, lets see what the GPS info provides, lets look at the Gatwick and Farnborugh Radar trace and see what happened, i suspect they already have and know who was in the wrong.
From the Maps and debris shown I think its obvious where the fault lies but I am not a Bar Room Expert.
All I know is accidents never just happen, its a chain of avoidable events, this is why we should teach the PPL students to a high standard and as examiniers be firm in reminding people to LOOKOUT and follow the RULEs. Flying should be fun, it should also be safe, follow the rules and procedures and it will be.
RANT OVER!!!
Happy flying, LOOKOUT, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
RIP Alan Weald.
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IO540, if you know the word on the ground at shoreham, then you know that this discussion has not really got close to why .
Looking at the Shoreham published procedures for a left hand pattern on 20 and the distribution of aircraft parts as recently posted I find difficulty to combine the theory with reality.
Where was that DA40?
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Having flown a bit at North Weald I can agree with Jetblu that the a/g operator is very helpful and the circuit is user friendly for various types of aircraft. It's probably more down to the fact that there are regular movements by a wider variety of aircraft than can be found at many other airfields.
I can understand why pilots want to know immediately what the cause of a collision is, but there is really no way to know what actually happened or what state the aircraft involved were in just before it happened; for all we know it may have had nothing whatsoever to do with circuit procedures.
I'm pretty sure lookout is part of aviate but whatever. 
I can understand why pilots want to know immediately what the cause of a collision is, but there is really no way to know what actually happened or what state the aircraft involved were in just before it happened; for all we know it may have had nothing whatsoever to do with circuit procedures.
LOOKOUT, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
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Vino - I agree with you.
intresting question your pose bearing in mind they had a flying instructor on board "following" the published shoreham pattern.
where was that DA40
Always highlight the LOOKOUT in any ground brief.
intresting question your pose bearing in mind they had a flying instructor on board "following" the published shoreham pattern.
where was that DA40
Always highlight the LOOKOUT in any ground brief.
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Not being an AAIB expert in these thing but I think JETBLU has a point.
The deris field can not lie.
if the RV was in the climb out and in a left turn then the DA40 would have been covered by his wing. IF he then eneded up lower but climbing and the DA40 on a constaint height and heading the RV pilot would not have seen the DA40 approaching from behind until too late and would ahve hit him from below so the DA40 pilots would not have seen him either.
But if the DA40 had reported X-wind then looking at the standard circuit pattern you wouln't expect it to be over the coast until near the harbour entrace. Odd that the prop landed where it did?
But there I go being a Bar room Expert, which I'm not. Just putting forward one theory which is all it is.
The deris field can not lie.
if the RV was in the climb out and in a left turn then the DA40 would have been covered by his wing. IF he then eneded up lower but climbing and the DA40 on a constaint height and heading the RV pilot would not have seen the DA40 approaching from behind until too late and would ahve hit him from below so the DA40 pilots would not have seen him either.
But if the DA40 had reported X-wind then looking at the standard circuit pattern you wouln't expect it to be over the coast until near the harbour entrace. Odd that the prop landed where it did?
But there I go being a Bar room Expert, which I'm not. Just putting forward one theory which is all it is.
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Good to see some balance in the discussion.
The immediate blaming of the RV pilot by a few posters was appalling, particularly as it was based on so little information. Thankfully, the worst of those comments was modified (to some extent) as a result of the perfectly proper protests which have now also been deleted, having served their purpose.
There is always more to aviation accidents than first appears and, of all the aviation accidents in which I've been involved (professionally) over many years, there has never been just one cause.
FL
The immediate blaming of the RV pilot by a few posters was appalling, particularly as it was based on so little information. Thankfully, the worst of those comments was modified (to some extent) as a result of the perfectly proper protests which have now also been deleted, having served their purpose.
There is always more to aviation accidents than first appears and, of all the aviation accidents in which I've been involved (professionally) over many years, there has never been just one cause.
FL
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Romour has it that the DA40 was conducting instructor training on an Aircraft rented from Flying time. There are only two schools at Shoreham that teach instructor training, Sky leisure use their own aircraft.
Wonder who was looking out????
Wonder who was looking out????