Shoreham Incident.

[memories of px]

it occurred at 1100 feet, at the point where the diamond aircraft was crossing the upwind numbers and the vans took off and climbed up into him,or just ahead, the diamond star could not be expected to see an aircraft coming up from below with such a high rate of climb.

[Mr Cessna]

Sussex Police said it appeared he steered the plane away from homes during the crash on Monday.

The Air Accident Investigations Branch (AAIB) are investigating the incident.

'Avert greater tragedy'
His family issued a statement, which said: "Alan was a captain for British Airways for many years who flew all over the world and lived life to the full.

"He loved aeroplanes and when he retired from BA, he built his own light aircraft.

BBC news

[IO540]

it occurred at 1100 feet, at the point where the diamond aircraft was crossing the upwind numbers and the vans took off and climbed up into him,or just ahead

Interesting... are you certain?

[robin]

Note to self

Get my aircraft recognition up to speed so I know which aircraft taking off as I join a circuit is going to have a high rate of climb

The circuit join is pretty much laid down, so you are funnelled into a particular spot at a specific height.

We were taught when climbing out nose-high to weave and/or drop the nose so we keep an eye on traffic crossing in front of us.

[NigelOnDraft]

This post is not to address what and why happened yesterday - nobody really knows, the AAIB will publish in due course, there is already contradictory information, and finger pointing helps nobody. And as with all accidents, it will probably be a chain of events / factors.

However, there are valid questions raised above about circuit joining procedures, and am sure all could do with a rethink on what they do, maybe versus what they should do.

AFAIK, this is about as authoritative as the "defined" best practice to join a circuit CAA Overhead Join Poster. So a direct crosswind join is not the standard. Whether you like the overhead join or not, it does give a good opportunity to pick out all other aircraft, including departing traffic. NB what the poster says Watch for aircraft taking off, as they could pose a hazard.

If people really feel the OHJ is dangerous, it is not worth whinging on here - they should be filing MORs highlighting the hazards, and campaigning to change it. But until that change, and unless Shoreham has a correctly publicised alternative procedure, the OHJ appears to me to be the "correct" way to join a visual circuit. As with all "SOPs", one can deviate, but the accountability and responsibility for doing so rest with those (which may be ATC as well as crew) making that decision.

Willing to be corrected if the OHJ is not documented as the "best practice".

NoD

[glush]

I spend quite a lot of time in the circuit instructing. I'm often surprised how, with an active circuit of 2 or 3 aircraft, joining traffic calls up and declares from several miles away, that they'll be joining downwind, base leg etc etc.

I really can't understand what the problem is with an overhead join in situaitons like this. It takes a few minutes more, and provides a better opportunity for the joining traffic to spot those already in the pattern. Additionally, those already in the circuit pattern know more readily where and when to expect the joining aircraft.

For solo students in the circuit pattern, there is enough going on already - we were all there once! Yet rarely do I hear traffic intending to make a non-standard join ascertain beforehand whether or not there are solo students in the circuit, before committing themselves.

I'm not suggesting the overhead join is perfect, but my feelings are that it does tend to make things more predictable for all parties.

[Red Four]

Just for information, Shoreham did 6713 movements in April, so considerably more than 100 a day, especially when you consider 'bad weather' days and the fact that the movements are largely limited to the published airfield operating hours.

[IO540]

I don't want to start another "OHJ" thread especially as it is not relevant to this accident, but the issue with the OHJ should be readily apparent:

- multiple planes can arrive concurrently, with the possibility of a mid-air because they are all at the same height and it is geometrically infeasible to guarantee that each can see all the others

- while everybody who has arrived is going round and round in the OHJ, they again can't see each other so separation assumes looking ahead of you and hoping that a) you can see everybody ahead and b) they can see you.

It is really a very dodgy system. Something like a crosswind join is much safer because you are approaching the airfield from an area in which there should not be other traffic (except another plane also joining crosswind, but he should be able to report his distance to run and not lie about that as many do) and you have the whole airfield and the circuit nicely laid out in front of you. Also you will normally be descending so your visibility is even better.

People who like the OHJ are probably the same people who think a lookout is perfect, but there is ample evidence that it isn't.

[ifitaintboeing]

Originally Posted by Nigeondraft

AFAIK, this is about as authoritative as the "defined" best practice to join a circuit CAA Overhead Join Poster.

It's in the UK Aeronautical Information Publication [AIP].

UK AIP GEN3.3, 5.5.2 Standard Overhead Join

Originally Posted by UK AIP GEN 3.3 5.5.2

(a) Overfly the aerodrome at 2000 aal;
(b) descend on the deadside to circuit height;
(c) join by crossing the upwind end of the runway at circuit height;
(d) position downwind.

Very sad at the loss of another fellow aviator.

[memories of px]

everybody seems to be getting off topic, its not circuit joining procedures that are in question here, its take off departure procedures, also go-arounds, if you are on finals and have to go-around what height is it safe to cross the upwind numbers at?? i would say 500 feet before continuing the climb beyond the numbers, if at 1100 feet already maintain a good look out for crosswind joining traffic.
and yes i am sure.

[Deeday]

Originally Posted by IO540

I don't think a prop that's been ripped out of the gearbox is going to fly laterally on its own very far...

I would think the same had the prop/hub assembly remained integer (e.g. in case of failure of the flange bolts), but from the picture of the propeller on the beach it looks as though there's basically only one blade still attached to the hub. With such eccentricity, I would expect the prob/hub assembly to be flung sideways quite energetically.

[NutLoose]

Pilot has been named, condolences to the family.


Ex-British Airways captain killed after mid-air collision with light aircraft causes him to lose control and crash | Mail Online

[IO540]

I think OHJ proponents forget that the OHJ ends up with a crosswind join, which takes us back to square one.

In an ATC scenario, when you are cleared to exit the OHJ, that is equivalent to being cleared to fly a crosswind join. Same risks, except you were subjected to additional risks while performing the OHJ earlier on as well.

Anyway, they will get the GPS log from the DA40 (the engine data logger logs lat/long as well) and find out exactly where it happened. A pity we are not going to hear about it for a year or so.

[THICKO]

Quote: "I think OHJ proponents forget that the OHJ ends up with a crosswind join, which takes us back to square one.'

You must fly extremely tight circuits then! Do you normally turn to fly crosswind at the upwind end of the runway?

Anyway, I think that the thread has drifted somewhat considering little is yet known for certain.

[Justiciar]

You must fly extremely tight circuits then! Do you normally turn to fly crosswind at the upwind end of the runway?

The comment was not about when you turn crosswind on climb out it was about where you do a cross wind join, either straight in or from an OHJ. The point is that you don't turn crosswind over the numbers, to prevent the possibility of conflict with someone joining cross wind

It seems to me that the OHJ is sometimes necessary where there are issues which may prevent other approaches, e.g. noise abatement, obstructions etc. There should not be a problem provided that people overwork the radio telling everyone else exactly where they are. If people are not communicating then any form of join will have heightened risks associated with it.

[soaringhigh650]

I think OHJ proponents forget that the OHJ ends up with a crosswind join, which takes us back to square one.

The OHJ takes you to a point where you join downwind on the upwind end of the runway.

It's not the same as the crosswind taken after one departs the upwind end of the runway.

The two tracks run parallel to each other.

[ShyTorque]

Whatever joining procedure used, somewhere there is the possibility of aircraft to aircraft conflict.

Aircraft already in the pattern, whatever climb angle they might make, have priority over joining traffic.

"See and be seen" is subject to the limitations of the human eyesight.

There was a discussion here (Private Flying) very recently where a newly qualified pilot told us about a situation where he used the radio to ask another pilot for his position. He was concerned that someone took him to task on the radio for doing so, as did others participating in the discussion he began here.

Some others here will hopefully see that what he did was actually very sensible, irrespective of what some folk think CAP413 doesn't allow us to say on the radio. Safety is paramount. If in doubt, use the radio in any way you need to.

[memories of px]

the OHJ is quite straightforward, its a bit like a conveyor belt, if its a left hand circuit approach the airfield with it on your left side at 2000',(right side for right hand circuits) you can circle up there left hand turns for as long as want so you know exactly what you are going to do,for the active runway, at shoreham, for rwy20, when you are on the live side be at 2000' or 1100', nothing else. when ready and cleared, cross the landing numbers at 2000' tracking 290 starting a cruise descent in an arc, extend as necessary if following other traffic, (if busy you will be asked to join overhead, so unlikely to come across traffic joining on a direct to crosswind join from the west at 1100',) to cross the upwind numbers at a steady 1100' tracking 110, watch for established circuit traffic and position behind if necessary, anyone in the circuit should be at 1100 before turning downwind from a take off to crosswind climb, providing a sufficient time & distance in which to position your aircraft as necessary, what is not expected is an aircraft taking off to compromise crosswind joining traffic either from the OH or direct.
ps i dont think you should address another aircraft directly when in the circuit, but via atc, its more diplomatic!, you can always ask atc if you can talk direct to another aircraft.

[IO540]

Descening off an OHJ, I would always aim to end up at circuit height overhead the upwind numbers - for exactly the same reason one joins crosswind at circuit height and overhead the numbers.

Otherwise, you risk a collision with departing traffic which might typically be at 300-500ft overhead the numbers, and at circuit height a mile or two further out.

You must fly extremely tight circuits then! Do you normally turn to fly crosswind at the upwind end of the runway?

Yes. It's very easy.

[ShyTorque]

i dont think you should address another aircraft directly when in the circuit, but via atc, its more diplomatic!

Agreed but the incident I refer to occurred where no ATC was present.