Problems with landing

[ADB25]

I am a low hour PPL student and I am really struggling with landings. My approach seems to be fine but when about 500ft agl I seem to start over controlling the aircraft or atleast the piper seems to need to be controlled more. My instructor is the sit back and let me make my own mistakes type of guy and has not given me much guidance. Can anyone give any good tips for approach and landing, should you really need to fight an aircraft as much as i seem to be doing? Could this be due to slow speed flight being much more sluggish?

Also where is the best place to line up the runway in the front screen and how much should you allow the aircraft to fly it self as it were?

Thanks

ADB

[avonflyer]

it will come with time - but things that I found helped - get the trim right on the decent and it will fly itself in, when you get over the threshold look at the far end of the runway not down to the concrete, when you get over the runway and have cut the power try to fly the length of the runway without landing (you wont but it will improve your touch down a lot)..

ah and last thought - are you doing a lot of approaches in a cross wind at present? there is a lot of gusty cross winds about.. if so once again you judgement will improve with time as to the amount you have to turn into the wind to keep going straight.

[Red Top Comanche]

Keep trying, this is one of those things where the penny finally drops and you just start getting it right.

Two tips though. Firstly, get you instuctor to fly and approach and landing and PAY ATTENTION to the visual cues. No one here can tell you what to look for, its different for everyone.

Secondly, try getting you instructor to let you make longer approaches so you get used to getting the aircraft trimmed. By 500ft, you should be trimmed and almost able to let the plane continue with minor adustments till the flare.

Finally, if you are not coping with a slow aircraft, go up to 5000ft with your instructor and fly around at 65/70kt till you get the feel for it.

Have fun.


RTC

[The500man]

It sounds like you are being a bit hard on yourself. If you're instructor is sitting back and letting you get on with it then chances are you're doing fine.

You shouldn't really need to fight the aircraft at all. They are designed to be fairly stable. Possibly the best thing you can do is hold your control position and see what is happening, and then make gradual changes to maintain your desired approach to the runway. Don't let yourself move the controls quickly. Less is always more!

If you are "steering" into wind gusts (for example) you may think you are keeping the wings level, but in reality you will be causing a delayed roll when the wind gust dies down, and then you will have to pick the wing up again increasing your work load. I was guilty of this during training until an instructor pointed out that if I kept the yoke centred, as the aircraft moves around, it is almost like it is pivoting about the yoke. Your hand will lag behind the aircraft so there is still aileron input but it is much reduced.

In terms of aiming point, I wouldn't worry about where the numbers appear in the windscreen, but look straight at them and fly toward them. Just keep thinking fly towards them and it might surprise you how easy it is to actually get there.

The very best thing you can do of course is ask your instructor for advice, but like I said above, he probably thinks you are doing fine!

[maxred]

With practice

Yep a good tip mentioned here is look out of the window, after having selected your landing point. A good set and balanced approach should, in general, lead to a good landing. i.e. at 500' trim set, speed set, landing point selected. In most training aeroplanes they should fly in, on approaching your landing point, look out to the end of the runway, use peripheral vision to check position, and flare/power off when a few feet off, still looking out along the runway. I found, particularly in tail draggers that looking ''in'' never works, looking out all the time is the way to hone your landing ability.

You mention 'fighting' the aeroplane? Unless very gusty, croswind etc, you should not have to fight an aeroplane in landing phase.

[Bigears]

My advice, for what its worth, as a relatively new PPL;
1. Fly on a calm day first, then build up to crosswinds and turbulent approaches
2. Get the instructor to show you how it should be done, and talk you through what they are doing and why. Its your money- be politely proactive
3. Ensure you are familiar with the downwind checks and the speeds to fly (so that they are second-nature and not using up vital brain-power as you try and remember- 'a good landing comes from a good approach')
4. Generally, if the aircraft is where you want it to be at the correct speed (and decreasing/increasing as required), then leave it alone and think of what your next move is going to be- be ahead of the aircraft and not reacting
5. If the instructor is quite happy for you to burn money while he/she is being a passenger who has the option of taking control should it go pear-shaped, change instructor. They are being paid primarily for safety, but also to instruct. Caveat: I'm assuming that you are speaking to the instructor and asking them questions like 'what could I have done better there?'. There has to be good 2-way comms between Student and Instructor.

Have fun!

[FleetFlyer]

It comes together with practise. You will find that larger control inputs are required at lower speeds.
Aim for the first 100 yards of runway. Point the aeroplane at it. If you aiming point rises in your field of vision, you are sinking relative to it, so you apply a little more power to arrest your descent. If its starting to creep towards the bottom of the windscreen then you need to take some power out.

Once you know what the picture is supposed to look like and you can fly reasonably close to your desired approach speed, you'll have it cracked.

When flaring, look out at 45 degrees to get a good picture of what attitude the aeroplane is at and how high off the ground you are.

You may find that a simulator helps with the speed control during the approach. Unfortunately you need to flare for real to get that skill.

When it comes together you'll be very happy. Its a good feeling indeed.

[Jan Olieslagers]

ADB25,
as a low hour microlight pilot, my opinion is really not more than 0,02 euro's, for that worth here goes:

-) your struggle is at the hardest point to be conquered, so it seems quite a natural thing;
-) I agree with others you should get a maximum out of the instructor, you're paying quite a lot of money and you really are entitled to a maximum of return for it;
-) OTOH I also agree with the earlier word that the best possible feedback your instructor could give you is to sit back relaxed - you can't be doing that bad!
-) you didn't specify what plane your are training in (or did I miss that?) but, though you should indeed be looking outside as much as you can ever manage, in certain type you do want to keep half an eye on the ASI. I trained on a variety of high-winged Rotax 80 hp-powered LSA's, and the one thing they had in common was an optimal approach speed of 110 km/h. The more performant the plane, the stricter this had to be respected.
-) as for what to aim for, normally it is "the numbers", or so I learned; but they are not present at all runways. On one very performant microlight I briefly flew, the secret was to aim 300 ft short of the threshold, and be happy to touch down 300 ft after it...

Good luck, happy flying, and always keep to the safe side of pleasure!

[Whopity]

Also where is the best place to line up the runway in the front screen and how much should you allow the aircraft to fly it self as it were?

The object is to keep the aiming point, the place where you want to land, in the same place in the window, where that is will depend upon your height and the aircraft's altitude and distance from the runway. By doing this the aircraft will fly a line of constant bearing to the runway. Trim the aircraft and let it fly itself, it will do the job better than you ever will.

My approach seems to be fine but when about 500ft agl I seem to start over controlling

In a normal circuit you will not be on the centreline till 500ft, so how can you be flying an approach before that point?

Get your instructor to demonstrate, that's what he is there for.

[The500man]

In a normal circuit you will not be on the centreline till 500ft, so how can you be flying an approach before that point?

I think it is standard practice at most schools to fly bomber cicuits when training to give students plenty of time to get everything done. 800-900 ft with a 2 mile final seems fairly common.

[AdamFrisch]

As you get closer and start to round out for flaring, fixing visually on a point at the end of the runway will make you do better landings - this trick helps a lot. Looking to close in front of the aircraft breeds over control.

[ADB25]

Thanks for all your feedback guys, some good stuff for me to think about. My instructor keeps mentioning the amount of bumps and knocks the early 70's cherokee has had, it doesn't like flying straight, which I can notice from little experience I have on other aircraft. The problem with my airfield is there is nearly ALWAYS a cross wind and quite a strong one at that, so my approaches I find always require lots of input from me, which if I'm honest at my low skill level gets a little bit too much.

But as it has been said many times before, practice, practice, practice and more practice