England sucks
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 862
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From: Swindon, Wiltshire
It doesn't have to be like that - you just need to put the effort into finding yourself a better solution. There have been many useful suggestions in this thread.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.
This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.
Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
Pace
This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.
Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
Pace
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
A US PPL is not much cheaper nowadays than a UK one. Their avgas has gone up hugely.
The chief plus of a US PPL is that you can do it as a solid project out there, in a few weeks, whereas the average time in the UK is a year due to training being constantly broken by bad weather. Of course, if somebody picked their time right and camped out next to a UK school they would do better but few UK schools are organised anywhere as well as the US ones, but few people do that because the UK option enables the training to be fitted around's one's life and income. The school I did my IR in (Arizona) was like clockwork. Maintenance and refuelling during the night, downtime = zero. Instructor availability 100%.
Some things remain far cheaper in the USA, e.g. my IR cost me something like $4k (incl motel, travel, and food etc) whereas a JAA IR is something like £15k. But that is due to other factors, not the change of scenery...
Unfortunately people like your client inadvertently create The Handling Problem 
Most jet owners couldn't care less whether they get charged £400 or £2000 for having their sewage drained out and having some delicious coffee and croissants delivered by a very well dressed young lady with a very properly respectful smile and just the right amount of cleavage (the latter must be awfully hard to find within 50nm of Luton). The airport manager, being a fresh MBA from the Univ of Upper Warlingham (i.e. a clue-less moron who has never run even a chip shop) loves this kind of thing and doesn't want "dirty GA" around when these "nice customers" turn up.
The chief plus of a US PPL is that you can do it as a solid project out there, in a few weeks, whereas the average time in the UK is a year due to training being constantly broken by bad weather. Of course, if somebody picked their time right and camped out next to a UK school they would do better but few UK schools are organised anywhere as well as the US ones, but few people do that because the UK option enables the training to be fitted around's one's life and income. The school I did my IR in (Arizona) was like clockwork. Maintenance and refuelling during the night, downtime = zero. Instructor availability 100%.
Some things remain far cheaper in the USA, e.g. my IR cost me something like $4k (incl motel, travel, and food etc) whereas a JAA IR is something like £15k. But that is due to other factors, not the change of scenery...
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.
Most jet owners couldn't care less whether they get charged £400 or £2000 for having their sewage drained out and having some delicious coffee and croissants delivered by a very well dressed young lady with a very properly respectful smile and just the right amount of cleavage (the latter must be awfully hard to find within 50nm of Luton). The airport manager, being a fresh MBA from the Univ of Upper Warlingham (i.e. a clue-less moron who has never run even a chip shop) loves this kind of thing and doesn't want "dirty GA" around when these "nice customers" turn up.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,631
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From: Los Angeles, USA
For me, what makes it great to fly in the US is not the free landings and such - I'm happy to pay a landing fee - but that they work like all airports should: no bloody PPR and they're open after 5pm. That's true freedom.
Last time I was back and flew into Goodwood (which is a nice airfield) the AFIS woman asked "Have you got a PPR?" to which I answered "no" as I'd deliberately checked in Pooley's that you didn't need one (only that it was recommended). After I said that her whole tone changed and she got curt, short and very unhelpful. That pretty much sums up many English fields for me. They're run by people who like to control you in every way they can and if you won't submit yourself to that, they punish you. If they want a PPR, then by all means make it mandatory and lose some business. Not everyone in GA is out for a Sunday flight with the in-laws, you know. Some actually go places, change their minds, bimble, explore. You know - fly.
That said, there are a number of lovely grass fields where the kettle is on constant boil for any visitors - that's the lovely bit about English fields. Friendly. I feel closer to aviation in those than anywhere else. But they're becoming fewer and fewer.
Last time I was back and flew into Goodwood (which is a nice airfield) the AFIS woman asked "Have you got a PPR?" to which I answered "no" as I'd deliberately checked in Pooley's that you didn't need one (only that it was recommended). After I said that her whole tone changed and she got curt, short and very unhelpful. That pretty much sums up many English fields for me. They're run by people who like to control you in every way they can and if you won't submit yourself to that, they punish you. If they want a PPR, then by all means make it mandatory and lose some business. Not everyone in GA is out for a Sunday flight with the in-laws, you know. Some actually go places, change their minds, bimble, explore. You know - fly.
That said, there are a number of lovely grass fields where the kettle is on constant boil for any visitors - that's the lovely bit about English fields. Friendly. I feel closer to aviation in those than anywhere else. But they're becoming fewer and fewer.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 11th June 2011 at 16:28.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: Leeds, UK
Pace:
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.
This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.
Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
Surely it was a requirement to land at Norwich then? Yet there is Cambridge not too far away with pucka facilities and likely a hell of a lot cheaper than that?
It's all about picking your places. I rang up Durham Tees yesterday and spoke to the Handlers. With a little chit chat, I managed to get the handling fee down to a tenner, the landing fee was fixed at £24.99. Will I land there? Possibly not. But it's good to know a local facility with fuel / facilities / hotels nearby should there ever be problems is there and not a million pounds to land. Compare that to Doncaster and Humberside - both £44 for a PA28 for landing, then there's handling at Donny too....
With my membership, I also get unlimited landings/go arounds. I frequently when returning from a flight pop in and do 3 - 4 circuits, just to keep currency with them. The club always has back seats available (sometimes side seats) so always someone to go flying with. It's what's it all about....!
There's Fenton 2nm away where I can request ILS approaches too when the training permits - perfect!
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.
This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.
Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
Surely it was a requirement to land at Norwich then? Yet there is Cambridge not too far away with pucka facilities and likely a hell of a lot cheaper than that?
It's all about picking your places. I rang up Durham Tees yesterday and spoke to the Handlers. With a little chit chat, I managed to get the handling fee down to a tenner, the landing fee was fixed at £24.99. Will I land there? Possibly not. But it's good to know a local facility with fuel / facilities / hotels nearby should there ever be problems is there and not a million pounds to land. Compare that to Doncaster and Humberside - both £44 for a PA28 for landing, then there's handling at Donny too....
With my membership, I also get unlimited landings/go arounds. I frequently when returning from a flight pop in and do 3 - 4 circuits, just to keep currency with them. The club always has back seats available (sometimes side seats) so always someone to go flying with. It's what's it all about....!
There's Fenton 2nm away where I can request ILS approaches too when the training permits - perfect!
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Sussex
Joined: Sep 2009
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 948
Likes: 62
From: N.YORKSHIRE
I pay about £80 for annual membership. For that I get unlimited landings, circuits, go-arounds etc at my home base and twelve other airfields with which we have a reciprocal arrangement. I don't go to the likes of Shoreham, or buy bottled water.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,479
Likes: 178
From: UK
In my opinion, the biggest advantage to doing a PPL (or any other licence) in the USA, for a Brit, is that you've removed yourself from the home environment, and they have really excellent weather availability in placess like Florida or Arizona.
So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.
If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.
I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.
So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.
G
So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.
If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.
I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.
So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.
G
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Sussex
In my opinion, the biggest advantage to doing a PPL (or any other licence) in the USA, for a Brit, is that you've removed yourself from the home environment, and they have really excellent weather availability in placess like Florida or Arizona.
So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.
If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.
I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.
So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.
G
So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.
If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.
I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.
So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.
G
), transit through controlled airspace, MATZ penetration, and just radio practice and experience. The radio is an interesting one and is certainly harder on the UK. Again, I much prefer the US way but also agree that RT in the US is a bit too relaxed and some of the comms I listened to over there were just awful and damn funny,Anyhow, doesn't look like there'll be any flying for me this weekend, or many people as the weathers looking nasty. One of my instructors from Florida sent me the METAR from Florida yesterday evening. Not fair.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Yes, Florida is anything but guaranteed for wx, and I recall a post here from another "UK Florida PPL" who was out there for weeks and missed most days' flying, and was well cheesed off. I've been there on holes a number of times...
Arizona is 362/365 CAVOK or easily flyable. But there are no JAA-capable schools there. If there were, they would wipe the floor on training. I recall some European airlines doing training out there, years ago. Must have been just CPL hour building because JAA prohibits any IR training outside JAA-land.
S. California is the only other place.
Arizona is 362/365 CAVOK or easily flyable. But there are no JAA-capable schools there. If there were, they would wipe the floor on training. I recall some European airlines doing training out there, years ago. Must have been just CPL hour building because JAA prohibits any IR training outside JAA-land.
S. California is the only other place.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Shy Torque
Things are not good as far as GA goes in the UK at present.
They are not good as far as GA goes in Europe (Frankly they never were as GA didnt exist other than in France and Germany)
The UK is now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world.
Today there is a warning to the conservatives on wanting to be the green party regarding carbon emissions.
It is warned that this policy will jeopordise the recovery. The UK emits 2% of world Carbon emissions yet wants to be the leader in tackling a problem which is dwarfed by the Icelandic volcano.
Things are not Rosy regarding GA in the UK or Europe.
Pace
Things are not good as far as GA goes in the UK at present.
They are not good as far as GA goes in Europe (Frankly they never were as GA didnt exist other than in France and Germany)
The UK is now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world.
Today there is a warning to the conservatives on wanting to be the green party regarding carbon emissions.
It is warned that this policy will jeopordise the recovery. The UK emits 2% of world Carbon emissions yet wants to be the leader in tackling a problem which is dwarfed by the Icelandic volcano.
Things are not Rosy regarding GA in the UK or Europe.
Pace