Radar service.
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Radar service.
During a very pleasant flight over the Yorkshire Dales I requested a transit through Leeds CTR. The nice controller gave me transit but once I entered the zone he advised me that it was "radar service". I'm not 100% sure what this means for a VFR flight, can someone enlighten me ?
Also, once I was outside his zones he told me to freecall London FIS. I'd expected to stay with him for the duration of my flight so I wasn't expecting this. Did he just want me out of his way do you think ?
Also, once I was outside his zones he told me to freecall London FIS. I'd expected to stay with him for the duration of my flight so I wasn't expecting this. Did he just want me out of his way do you think ?
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Radar Control Service...i.e. you fly what headings and altitudes (s)he tells you to.
Some zones don't offer a LARS (Solent for example) so once clear of their zone they like to dump you onto someone else.
Some zones don't offer a LARS (Solent for example) so once clear of their zone they like to dump you onto someone else.
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Pretty much what he said!
Within controlled airspace, the only service available is radar (or sometimes procedural) control, and the clearance usually comes in the form of "cleared from a to b via c, at/not above xxx feet".
LARS is only provided by LARS units (a list and diagram is in the AIP and in the RAF BINA), the units being military or being subsidised by the state to provide the service. Other units will usually provide a similar service beyond their airspace boundaries, subject to controller workload.
The controller may have said squawk 7000, freecall London Info, but there is nothing to stop you from calling a different unit (eg the next suitable), or indeed from saying "I'd like to remain with you for the next xx miles (or until a place)" etc. Just bear in mind how busy the freq is if you ask!
ap
Within controlled airspace, the only service available is radar (or sometimes procedural) control, and the clearance usually comes in the form of "cleared from a to b via c, at/not above xxx feet".
LARS is only provided by LARS units (a list and diagram is in the AIP and in the RAF BINA), the units being military or being subsidised by the state to provide the service. Other units will usually provide a similar service beyond their airspace boundaries, subject to controller workload.
The controller may have said squawk 7000, freecall London Info, but there is nothing to stop you from calling a different unit (eg the next suitable), or indeed from saying "I'd like to remain with you for the next xx miles (or until a place)" etc. Just bear in mind how busy the freq is if you ask!
ap
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Radar Control Service...i.e. you fly what headings and altitudes (s)he tells you to.
Also, once I was outside his zones he told me to freecall London FIS. I'd expected to stay with him for the duration of my flight so I wasn't expecting this. Did he just want me out of his way do you think ?
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<<Once you've left the sector you'll be passed onto someone else who covers the adjacent sector. This is normal. >>
If the aircraft is leaving a control zone, below controlled airspace there won't be an "adjacent sector" so pilots are usually given a conspicuity code and told they are cleared to leave the frequency. ATC may not necessarily liaise the flight with another unit in these circumstances.
If the aircraft is leaving a control zone, below controlled airspace there won't be an "adjacent sector" so pilots are usually given a conspicuity code and told they are cleared to leave the frequency. ATC may not necessarily liaise the flight with another unit in these circumstances.
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Thanks for the helpful replies, all is clear now.
It as the 'radar service' that confused me a little as I thought that was IFR only. I thought accepting it could mean that the controller directing me into IMC conditions.
The controller did exactly what AP said and I didn't argue, it was just a little unexpected and the freq wasn't busy. Knowing my route he knew I'd be well outside his zone and probably just wanted rid of me.
All good experience building on the theory, and a pleasant flight.
DeeCee - good advice but I won't be able to for a while and wanted to clarify things while it's still fresh in my mind.
It as the 'radar service' that confused me a little as I thought that was IFR only. I thought accepting it could mean that the controller directing me into IMC conditions.
The controller did exactly what AP said and I didn't argue, it was just a little unexpected and the freq wasn't busy. Knowing my route he knew I'd be well outside his zone and probably just wanted rid of me.
All good experience building on the theory, and a pleasant flight.
DeeCee - good advice but I won't be able to for a while and wanted to clarify things while it's still fresh in my mind.
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It was the 'radar service' that confused me a little as I thought that was IFR only.
It serves as a useful reminder to pilots not to blindly follow instructions without thinking where it'll take you.
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Knowing my route he knew I'd be well outside his zone and probably just wanted rid of me.
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Radar Control Service....
So why, when I transit the Lyneham or Brize class D, do the mil insist on telling me to maintain VMC, rather than utter the words "Radar Control Service" as Solent etc do ?
BEX
So why, when I transit the Lyneham or Brize class D, do the mil insist on telling me to maintain VMC, rather than utter the words "Radar Control Service" as Solent etc do ?
BEX
Because they are Military controllers who use different procedures. These were originally Special Rules Zones that were changed to the civil designation of Class D airspace. If you were being vectored for an instrument approach they would say you are under Radar Control however, for a VFR transit they leave you to your own devices.
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Originally Posted by whopity
Because they are Military controllers who use different procedures. These were originally Special Rules Zones that were changed to the civil designation of Class D airspace. If you were being vectored for an instrument approach they would say you are under Radar Control however, for a VFR transit they leave you to your own devices.
So - on that basis the airspace has never been different from it's civil counterpart, therefore, in the same was as ATSOCAS (sic) have been standardised so there is no reason why Class 'D' operations should be different. Maybe with the Military having only one piece of class 'D' in the near future maybe they should sort their act out and step into line with the rest of the country.
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The question was rhetorical.
Class D airspace is class D, as Chilli has explained. Outside the Class D, the mil are very good at ensuring that we both know what type of service I'm getting (Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction)... but when I enter the class D....
So what type of service am I receiving then? Has to be Radar Control doesn't it?
BEX
Class D airspace is class D, as Chilli has explained. Outside the Class D, the mil are very good at ensuring that we both know what type of service I'm getting (Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction)... but when I enter the class D....
however, for a VFR transit they leave you to your own devices.
BEX
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CAA safetysense
Have a look at CAA safetysense leaflet (online pdf available) 27 "VFR Light in controlled airspace" section 9 f & g which talks to the "radar service" element of this question.
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There are differences from control zone to control zone IMHE. Solent will give you "radar control service", yet I have never had this from Bournemouth who normally leave you on your own, occasionally passing traffic info. I don't know if you tell them your routing at the initial call whether this makes a difference and then they are not required to "control" you? (i.e. from Tarrant Rushton to Hengistbury Head via the overhead)
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I'm not confused. The ATC Service in Class D is a Radar Control Service (or possibly a Procedural Service, unlikely, but possible).
RCS doesn't imply that you are going to get vectored all around the sky, or indeed that any separation is going to be provided against IFR traffic.
The Class of airspace dictates the separation (or otherwise) that ATC have to provide. In Class D there is no requirement to separate IFR and VFR traffic.
I don't understand why the Military, in particular, don't change the type of service when I enter CAS, but merely advise me to maintain VMC. They are always very quick to place me under one of the ATSOCAS when I leave, which is right and proper.
But what type of service do they reckon they are providing in CAS?
RCS doesn't imply that you are going to get vectored all around the sky, or indeed that any separation is going to be provided against IFR traffic.
The Class of airspace dictates the separation (or otherwise) that ATC have to provide. In Class D there is no requirement to separate IFR and VFR traffic.
I don't understand why the Military, in particular, don't change the type of service when I enter CAS, but merely advise me to maintain VMC. They are always very quick to place me under one of the ATSOCAS when I leave, which is right and proper.
But what type of service do they reckon they are providing in CAS?
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I don't understand why the Military, in particular, don't change the type of service when I enter CAS
But what type of service do they reckon they are providing in CAS
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Mil LARS
Hey all, an opinion from a military LARS controller...
Thought I'd mention that a 'Radar Service' doesnt necessarily imply Radar Control. Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS), and finally Radar Control which is used within CAS. Thus DS and TS can be used within CAS also. RCS merely gives the Area controller more certainty as to the ac flight profile, and they are responsible for providing a safe transit through CAS. What it does mean is that the civil sectors can co-ordinate against an ac under RCS in the knowledge that it will not deviate from its assigned hdg & alt/FL. On a DS one may ask for a change of hdg/alt/etc; on a TS one should advise before commencing the ammendment; on a BS do as one pleases :-)!
What is interesting here is that by the controller saying '...radar service' they may have simply upgraded a BS to a TS providing the track and alt are within the limitations of TS i.e. above terrain safe level (or warned that one is 'below TSL you are responsible for taking your own terrain separation', and the ac is correctly 'identified' (something that the controller is not obliged to inform you of on a Basic Service, even though by assigning a 3A code positive ident exists).
Another third key point is that a Procedural Service and BS are not radar services as each aircraft are not required to be monitored on a radar console or identified at all - unlikely on a mil console (cant speak for civvies). Or even if positive ident cannot be achieved you may hear 'G-CD traffic believed to be you has traffic 12 o'clock 2 miles manoeuvring no height information believed to be a windfarm.' From a military LARS perspective BS and TS are treated very similar. We tend to provide BS traffic with as much attention as everyone else with the exceptions of formal identification or a blip that dissappears into areas of high radar clutter.
To add to the Mil class D dit: purely East coast myself, I've never worked with class D, but I'm reliably informed that it is established around Lyneham and Brize due to the size and pax carrying capacity of the aircraft types; logical?
In practice the Lyneham/Brize class D is nothing more than an extravagant MATZ, the difference being that they can provide (and often do) SVFR clearances. In fact the controllers at Lyneham/Brize are only required to complete the Terminal ATC training course, and as such will not have used RCS (unless coming from an Area tour in which case they would have completed the corresponding training course). Either way mil terminal units will not provide RCS when a DS, TS, or SVFR clr will do :-p
Well, sun seems to be shining so its off to the club for a tour of Norfolk today... anyone at Old Buckenham fancy a bacon butty?
SL
Thought I'd mention that a 'Radar Service' doesnt necessarily imply Radar Control. Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS), and finally Radar Control which is used within CAS. Thus DS and TS can be used within CAS also. RCS merely gives the Area controller more certainty as to the ac flight profile, and they are responsible for providing a safe transit through CAS. What it does mean is that the civil sectors can co-ordinate against an ac under RCS in the knowledge that it will not deviate from its assigned hdg & alt/FL. On a DS one may ask for a change of hdg/alt/etc; on a TS one should advise before commencing the ammendment; on a BS do as one pleases :-)!
What is interesting here is that by the controller saying '...radar service' they may have simply upgraded a BS to a TS providing the track and alt are within the limitations of TS i.e. above terrain safe level (or warned that one is 'below TSL you are responsible for taking your own terrain separation', and the ac is correctly 'identified' (something that the controller is not obliged to inform you of on a Basic Service, even though by assigning a 3A code positive ident exists).
Another third key point is that a Procedural Service and BS are not radar services as each aircraft are not required to be monitored on a radar console or identified at all - unlikely on a mil console (cant speak for civvies). Or even if positive ident cannot be achieved you may hear 'G-CD traffic believed to be you has traffic 12 o'clock 2 miles manoeuvring no height information believed to be a windfarm.' From a military LARS perspective BS and TS are treated very similar. We tend to provide BS traffic with as much attention as everyone else with the exceptions of formal identification or a blip that dissappears into areas of high radar clutter.
To add to the Mil class D dit: purely East coast myself, I've never worked with class D, but I'm reliably informed that it is established around Lyneham and Brize due to the size and pax carrying capacity of the aircraft types; logical?
In practice the Lyneham/Brize class D is nothing more than an extravagant MATZ, the difference being that they can provide (and often do) SVFR clearances. In fact the controllers at Lyneham/Brize are only required to complete the Terminal ATC training course, and as such will not have used RCS (unless coming from an Area tour in which case they would have completed the corresponding training course). Either way mil terminal units will not provide RCS when a DS, TS, or SVFR clr will do :-p
Well, sun seems to be shining so its off to the club for a tour of Norfolk today... anyone at Old Buckenham fancy a bacon butty?
SL
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Not sure that the above is true....
Really? References please where they are available in CAS. (of any class) MATS part one or whatever JSP is relevant.
and
..and yet a MATZ is usually purely class G. Civil Aircraft don't require any form of "clearance" (but it's a good idea to talk to the unit concerned)
.... one more then... When would a SVFR Clearance be necessary in Class D?(and what type of service would the unit provide in the airspace?)
BEX
... Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS)
and
In practice the Lyneham/Brize class D is nothing more than an extravagant MATZ
.... one more then... When would a SVFR Clearance be necessary in Class D?(and what type of service would the unit provide in the airspace?)
BEX
