Radar service.
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Lincs
Bex...
I shall dig out some references for you, cant grasp them off the top of my head. But bearing in mind that Radar Control is useful for class A crossings, most CAS upward of 195/245 is class C.
You are absolutely correct with the MATZ being class G, and likewise that SVFR clearances are not required in class D; SVFR clearances are constantly being interrogated, when actually they are only really useful in low class A (eg. London).
But as I say, BZN/LYE class D is essentially established for the type of ac they operate, applying CAS rules allows the controller a little more SA of the area to provide a safe transit. Quite rightly I cannot think of a useful reason for SVFR for D but they do somehow :-/. As for the type of service, they can only provide the usual LARS ATSOCAS (BS, TS, DS).
SL
I shall dig out some references for you, cant grasp them off the top of my head. But bearing in mind that Radar Control is useful for class A crossings, most CAS upward of 195/245 is class C.
You are absolutely correct with the MATZ being class G, and likewise that SVFR clearances are not required in class D; SVFR clearances are constantly being interrogated, when actually they are only really useful in low class A (eg. London).
But as I say, BZN/LYE class D is essentially established for the type of ac they operate, applying CAS rules allows the controller a little more SA of the area to provide a safe transit. Quite rightly I cannot think of a useful reason for SVFR for D but they do somehow :-/. As for the type of service, they can only provide the usual LARS ATSOCAS (BS, TS, DS).
SL
Joined: Jul 2010
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From: USA
Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS)
ATSOCAS (BS, TS, DS).
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,827
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From: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Well, I'll shove my usual tuppence worth in here which stirred up all sorts of negativity last time I said it.
I have NEVER been given a Radar Control Service when entering Class D airspace VFR. Our local ATC unit NEVER tells VFR transits they are under a Radar Control Service.
This is all perfectly fine and in accordance with MATS Part 1 Section 3 Chapter 1, which states that the service to be provided by Approach Control within Class A to E airspace is "Air Traffic Control Service
with or without surveillance". In this case they're giving Air Traffic Control Service without surveillance. In almost all cases this is for traffic which has been under a BS before entering CAS, so not providing a radar service is entirely consistent with the previous service provision.
Just because you have a radar it doesn't mean you have to provide a radar service, whether your traffic's inside CAS or not.
NS
I have NEVER been given a Radar Control Service when entering Class D airspace VFR. Our local ATC unit NEVER tells VFR transits they are under a Radar Control Service.
This is all perfectly fine and in accordance with MATS Part 1 Section 3 Chapter 1, which states that the service to be provided by Approach Control within Class A to E airspace is "Air Traffic Control Service
with or without surveillance". In this case they're giving Air Traffic Control Service without surveillance. In almost all cases this is for traffic which has been under a BS before entering CAS, so not providing a radar service is entirely consistent with the previous service provision.
Just because you have a radar it doesn't mean you have to provide a radar service, whether your traffic's inside CAS or not.
NS
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Ok, Chapter and Verser from the MATS Part 1
and....
Controlled airspace is defined as Classes A-D, Outside CAS is defined as F and G
Is there any CLASS D airspace not covered by some sort of RADAR?
BEX
1.2 Type of Surveillance Service
1.2.1 The airspace within which the aircraft is flying determines the type of surveillance
service available, as shown in the table below
Controlled Airspace : Radar Control Service
Outside Controlled : Airspace Deconfliction Service or Traffic Service
1.2.2 Pilots must be advised if a service commences, terminates or changes when:
a) they are operating outside controlled airspace; or
b) they cross the boundary of controlled airspace.
1.2.1 The airspace within which the aircraft is flying determines the type of surveillance
service available, as shown in the table below
Controlled Airspace : Radar Control Service
Outside Controlled : Airspace Deconfliction Service or Traffic Service
1.2.2 Pilots must be advised if a service commences, terminates or changes when:
a) they are operating outside controlled airspace; or
b) they cross the boundary of controlled airspace.
1.3 Radar Control Service
1.3.1 A Radar Control Service may be provided to aircraft operating IFR, Special VFR or VFR.
When providing the service controllers issue instructions to which:
a) pilots of aircraft operating IFR are required to comply; and
b) pilots of aircraft operating Special VFR or VFR will comply unless they advise the
controller otherwise.
NOTE: The manner in which VFR flights under Radar Control Service may be safely
integrated with the IFR traffic flow in the vicinity of aerodromes is described
in Section 3.
1.3.2 Before an aircraft enters controlled airspace the controller must establish which flight
rules the pilot will be operating under.
1.3.1 A Radar Control Service may be provided to aircraft operating IFR, Special VFR or VFR.
When providing the service controllers issue instructions to which:
a) pilots of aircraft operating IFR are required to comply; and
b) pilots of aircraft operating Special VFR or VFR will comply unless they advise the
controller otherwise.
NOTE: The manner in which VFR flights under Radar Control Service may be safely
integrated with the IFR traffic flow in the vicinity of aerodromes is described
in Section 3.
1.3.2 Before an aircraft enters controlled airspace the controller must establish which flight
rules the pilot will be operating under.
Is there any CLASS D airspace not covered by some sort of RADAR?
BEX
Joined: May 2001
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I have NEVER been given a Radar Control Service when entering Class D airspace VFR. Our local ATC unit NEVER tells VFR transits they are under a Radar Control Service.
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Joined: Jun 1997
Posts: 1,446
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From: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
For a whole host of reasons, UK civil ATC are supposed to advise pilots when the service being provided changes.
If you enter Controlled Airspace from Class F or G airspace, then you can no longer receive the ATSOCAS service you were being given (Basic, Traffic, or Deconfliction). The controller can only give you an Air Traffic Control Service which is effectively either a Procedural or Radar Control service. Note that this doesn't mean that they have to control you with vectors or have you fly at a single level, more generic clearances are normally given.
If you leave CAS, then again the ATC unit has a responsibility to ask you what service you require under ATSOCAS, or to terminate their service and transfer you to another appropriate unit if you need one.
The provision of Flight Information and Alerting services are a given for all classes of airspace.
If you enter Controlled Airspace from Class F or G airspace, then you can no longer receive the ATSOCAS service you were being given (Basic, Traffic, or Deconfliction). The controller can only give you an Air Traffic Control Service which is effectively either a Procedural or Radar Control service. Note that this doesn't mean that they have to control you with vectors or have you fly at a single level, more generic clearances are normally given.
If you leave CAS, then again the ATC unit has a responsibility to ask you what service you require under ATSOCAS, or to terminate their service and transfer you to another appropriate unit if you need one.
The provision of Flight Information and Alerting services are a given for all classes of airspace.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 557
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From: Hampshire UK
I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about radar services and ATC clearances being displayed on this thread, especially by people that should know better.
Firstly Basic Service, Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service are not available within controlled airspace.
In a radar environment, within a control zone it is radar control service. Pilots should always be informed of a change of service, in order that everybody is clear about their responsibilities for separation, vectoring and flying in accordance with the privileges of their licence.
In a Class D CTR, VFR clearances can be given until the visibility at the associated aerodrome falls below 5 km, at which point the ATCO informs the pilot of the visibility and requests from the pilot what kind of clearance he requires. The pilot is responsible for determining his in-flight visibility and can elect to continue VFR, or request a SVFR clearance. At night in a Class D CTR, pilots must fly either SVFR or IFR and will be provided with standard separation from other such flights.
I sincerely hope our military colleagues are fully briefed on such points before summer 2012.
Firstly Basic Service, Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service are not available within controlled airspace.
In a radar environment, within a control zone it is radar control service. Pilots should always be informed of a change of service, in order that everybody is clear about their responsibilities for separation, vectoring and flying in accordance with the privileges of their licence.
In a Class D CTR, VFR clearances can be given until the visibility at the associated aerodrome falls below 5 km, at which point the ATCO informs the pilot of the visibility and requests from the pilot what kind of clearance he requires. The pilot is responsible for determining his in-flight visibility and can elect to continue VFR, or request a SVFR clearance. At night in a Class D CTR, pilots must fly either SVFR or IFR and will be provided with standard separation from other such flights.
I sincerely hope our military colleagues are fully briefed on such points before summer 2012.
