Using the IMC abroad..

[nick ritter]

Hi all,

I know that the IMCr is only a UK rating – however.. I would be interested to hear how people with this rating deal with certain situations when travelling outside the UK

You check the weather for your destination – say some airport just outside of Paris (any good recommendations would be appreciated as well for my June 11th trip) and the forecast is for scattered cloud at 2500 or something. You decide to go – yet approaching Paris it is clear that the cloud has got thicker and that in order to land you will need to descend through cloud (no holes immediately visible)

As I am new to it – perhaps my assumptions are wrong?

Am I right in thinking that you can only fly above cloud outside of the UK only as long as you are in the sight of the surface (i.e some hole somewhere that lets you see the ground)? Or can you fly above cloud irrespective of being insight of the ground?

Either way you are not allowed to climb through or descend through cloud or to fly an approach as you don’t hold an IR? And that you are not allowed a traffic service as you are not IR and you have not filled an IFR plan?

If these are correct – how do people deal with the above situation?

Are you just meant to look for a hole? Turn around and go home? Or do people just let down through the cloud regardless while tracking a certain route/VOR knowing that you will come out at a safe height to land visually? Would it ever be acceptable to fly the published approach? Or only under an emergency?

I don’t ask to see where I can bend the rules – I am not looking to do more than I am allowed – I am just trying to think ahead to the inevitable day when this situation presents itself

Any advice, experiences, would be much appreciated

Thanks in advance – Nick

[BackPacker]

If you have an IMC, it generally has two benefits:

1. It lifts certain restrictions that are placed on your vanilla UK PPL, including the "in sight surface" restriction.
2. It gives you the ability to fly in IMC conditions, outside controlled airspace.

Item 1 applies worldwide, but item 2 is UK-only.

So outside the UK you have to fly in VMC conditions. Those VMC conditions limits are defined on a per-country and per-airspace class (A-G) basis. But I'm not aware of any VMC condition in any class anywhere that allows you to fly in cloud. So any kind of cloud flying is forbidden. Also, mind that certain classes of airspace in some countries have an "in sight surface" requirement attached. In that case you still have to follow that requirement even though that requirement is lifted from your license.

So to descend through a cloud layer you have to find a hole. A hole which is actually big enough to satisfy the VMC conditions with regards to cloud clearance: Just the width of your wings may not satisfy VMC conditions unless those limits are just stated as 'clear of cloud'.

Or you rely on a bit of common sense and the fact that it'll be extremely hard for a prosecutor to successfully prosecute you for not maintaining VMC. (So don't put your "marginal VMC" flight on Youtube...)

[IO540]

An IMCR substantially expands your ability to do VFR flights abroad, because you can fly and navigate in lower vis, fly and navigate above an overcast, and you can penetrate IMC if this is necessary. In an emergency situation you can fly an IAP also, because you know how.

It makes you a much more confident pilot. Almost no really long VFR trip is possible as 100% totally clear of any cloud whatsoever. Well, it is possible if you are a permanent retired pilot with plenty of time

I would still be really careful to avoid ending up looking like a d1ck at the destination, because if the wx is OVC002 and you call up "VFR inbound" at 5000ft overhead, it is kind of obvious.... but enroute is a different thing.

The IMCR will not help you with a departure from a non-UK towered airport because they have VMC/VFR minima e.g. 1500ft cloudbase so if it is BKN009 you are stuck there no matter what. That actually happens quite often to VFR pilots.

"In sight of surface" is unenforceable and meaningless - assuming you are technically capable.

BTW the IMCR allows IFR in Class D,E,F,G in UK airspace, not just Class F,G.

[proudprivate]

1. It lifts certain restrictions that are placed on your vanilla UK PPL, including the "in sight surface" restriction.
...
Item 1 applies worldwide, but item 2 is UK-only.

There is an old quote from "bookworm" describing a few worldwide differences, clearly contradicting point 1.

For example, at Night, the rules of VFR in France change to prohibit flight above a covered layer. Other countries prohibit VFR flight in a control zone above a covered layer. I don't recall any country that prohibits it as a matter of course though.

Just this once, I'm genuinely interested in the data and I'm not trying to pick a fight for the sake of it

I've downloaded GEN1.7 (National Differences from ICAO) from a number of AIPs (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Spain, Sweden) and I can't find any evidence of that. Germany does prohibit VFR on top in class G, which only exists below 2500 ft agl.

France doesn't seem to change its rules of the air for night VFR, but since night VFR is effectively by exemption on particular routes, it may be that all the permissible night VFR routes have an 'in sight of the surface' restriction -- can't find it though.

The only state I ever found that prohibited VFR on top was South Africa.

From studying for the Belgian Air Law exam, I seem to remember that VFR above a cloud layer in Belgium was prohibited. In France, by day, it certainly is allowed and is stated explicitly in my "Manuel de Pilote Privι" which I bought for the inevitable small French airfield A/A and local regs.

As none of the countries outside the UK recognise the IMCR, I doubt very much that it would be of any use for the objectives you mentioned.

Also, in regards to "declaring an emergency" there was an interesting incident about a year and a half ago with a Dutch IFR rated pilot asking for an IFR clearance when getting above a cloud layer and Bremen Control (manned by an inexperienced stressed young lady) refusing first and arguing until the pilot in desperation declared an emergency to obtain his clearance. This then escalated into a full blown LBA-investigation and enforcement action, questioning pilots in the surroundings etc...

So don't try this above Germany

Hope this helps,

PP

[BackPacker]

PP, do you have a *UK issued* JAR-FCL compliant PPL?

This is taken straight from the ANO, which is the law governing anything that has to do with UK-issued PPLs:

SCHEDULE 7 Articles 64 to 71 and 78
Flight crew of aircraft – licences, ratings, qualifications and maintenance
of licence privileges
PART A
Flight crew licences
SECTION 1
United Kingdom Licences
SUB-SECTION 1
Aeroplane pilots
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age – 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) is entitled to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(2) The holder may not—
[...]
(c) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane—
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace if the flight visibility is less than three km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this subparagraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface;
[...]
(e) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A, B or C airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules;
(f) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules; or
[...]

These are restrictions on the *license*. They apply worldwide unless the applicable condition (IR or IMC) is met. So the holder of a UK-issued (JAR-FCL or national) PPL may not fly out of sight of the surface UNLESS he holds an IMC or IR. Period. And yes, this is not entirely according to JAR-FCL. So this *license* restriction is lifted (or replaced by something else) if you trade in your UK-issued license for another countries license.

Now IF said PPL holder also holds the IMC or IR, the *license restriction* is lifted. But there may still be *airspace restrictions* or other restrictions in place that required him from flying out of sight of the surface. These restrictions may be buried in the VMC minima that are defined for the various classes of airspace (A-G) or elsewhere. That's what bookworks quote is about.

(Edited: The ANO section quoted is about old-style UK licenses. But the section on JAR-FCL licenses is essentially the same and has the same restrictions.)

[AdamFrisch]

"In sight of surface" is unenforceable and meaningless - assuming you are technically capable.

Which is pretty much true for all VFR minima enforcement. 1500m horizontally from cloud? Not even P3 Orion full of the Royal Navy's most high tech equip could measure that with any accuracy.

[Fuji Abound]

An IMCR substantially expands your ability to do VFR flights abroad, because you can fly and navigate in lower vis, fly and navigate above an overcast, and you can penetrate IMC if this is necessary. In an emergency situation you can fly an IAP also, because you know how.

Read this carefully.

If you fly a lot and actually go places you will do well at some point not too come a little unstuck with the weather.

The key is that the IMCr doesnt know where you are and doesnt care, and you know how to get yourself out of trouble.

Obvioulsy you never set out to abuse your priviliges and obviously you will think carefully should the need arise, but it is good to know that if all else fails "in an emergency situation" you can get yourself down, just as well as you could in the UK.

[bookworm]

Now IF said PPL holder also holds the IMC or IR, the *license restriction* is lifted. But there may still be *airspace restrictions* or other restrictions in place that required him from flying out of sight of the surface. These restrictions may be buried in the VMC minima that are defined for the various classes of airspace (A-G) or elsewhere. That's what bookworks quote is about.

Wot he said.

[BackPacker]

Not quite...

But there may still be *airspace restrictions* or other restrictions in place that required him from flying out of sight of the surface.

What I meant, of course, was that there may be other restrictions in place that *forbid* him from flying out of sight of the surface.

[Whopity]

ANO Schedule 7 Part B

Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes)
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), within the United Kingdom an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes) rating entitles:

so how does this apply outside the UK?

[IO540]

It doesn't.

The bit of the IMCR which applies outside the UK is the removal of the UK-issued PPL to be in sight of surface for VFR.

Far be it for me to argue with you, Whopity

Obvioulsy you never set out to abuse your priviliges and obviously you will think carefully should the need arise, but it is good to know that if all else fails "in an emergency situation" you can get yourself down, just as well as you could in the UK.

Indeed, but there is a subtle difference between going somewhere if

- IMC (or low vis) will kill you
- IMC (or low vis) won't kill you

You could be flying over the Channel on a hazy day and you see absolutely zilch. It is just like IMC. But 100% legal VFR. You can even see the water surface if you look straight down.

So instrument capability, even if not legal, is worth a huge amount - because VFR license privileges are impossible to fully explore on the basic PPL training one gets.

Pre-IR, I used to plan my long cross-Europe VFR trips very carefully, to make sure I would never make a fool of myself.

My only reflection on those long trips (all the way to Crete) is that I had much better weather back then. Since I got the IR, the weather has been much worse

[Fuji Abound]

Indeed, but there is a subtle difference between going somewhere if

- IMC (or low vis) will kill you
- IMC (or low vis) won't kill you

You could be flying over the Channel on a hazy day and you see absolutely zilch. It is just like IMC. But 100% legal VFR. You can even see the water surface if you look straight down.

So instrument capability, even if not legal, is worth a huge amount

Yes, exactly and I think you are reading between the lines.

To be blunt, if you go places you WILL get caught out by the weather sometime be it your example or something else. I know you know that!

So you will use your IMCr in earnest and be pleased your skills are current and ready.

Some may be even more "cavalier" and if some are to be believed this is as true of us and our European cousins.

To this day I still recall an afternoon at a well kown destination in France when conditions became distinctly IMC. I dont think there was one other IR or valid IMCr holder in the airport on that day but I can guarantee you there werent any aircraft left on the tarmac either.

[BEagle]

If these are correct – how do people deal with the above situation?

They do what the French do - lie and say they're in VMC.

[bookworm]

ANO Schedule 7 Part B
Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes)
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), within the United Kingdom an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes) rating entitles:

so how does this apply outside the UK?

The restriction in question is in Schedule 7 Part A:

Section 1 – United Kingdom Licences
Sub-Section 1 AEROPLANE PILOTS
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
(2) The holder may not:
...
(c) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument
meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an
aeroplane:
...
(iii) out of sight of the surface;

Similar for the JAR-FCL version.

[Pace]

You are the commander of the aircraft and responsable for the safety of your aircraft and its pax.

As such your decisions relating to the above overide any other laws.
Should you with an IMCR rating and with the skills and currency to boot inadvertantly get into an IMC condition where you deem your SAFEST option is to take an instrument approach then do it and argue the situation on the ground.

As long as you explain to ATC your predicament and intentions I cannot see how legally you could have the book thrown at you.

The situation can occur with N v G reg. Pilot X flies his Cirrus SR22 to a french location. He flies IFR and lands off an instrument approach with overcast 300 feet in his N reg Cirrus with aN FAA PPL IR.

Next day Pilot X with a Basic European licence flies the same trip but VFR in the same aircraft type but G reg.
A front moves in much faster than forecast (it does happen and Pilot X is trapped from behind and infront.
Now his destination 25 miles ahead is 300 overcast what does he do?
It is pretty obvious that anything less than flying an IFR approach is risking his aircraft and the lives of those on board.

Douglas Bader quote " Rules are for fools to obey and wisemen to question".

As Captain do whatever you consider is your safest option for the flight and argue it later. You cannot argue from a coffin just because you stuck to the rules.

To takeoff knowing your conditions at the other end are likely to be IMC and then take an instrument approach then you will be in trouble legally if anyone cottons on.

Addendum

Rules should be in place to protect us from ourselves and to make flying safer as such we should try to keep to them.

Sadly EASA a supposed safety body has shown this NOT to be the case.Their regulations are more and more politically motivated and less and less safety orientated GO FIGURE?

Pace

[what next]

Hello!

As such your decisions relating to the above overide any other laws.

Yes, but really only in an emergency. Like in your deteriorating weather example. In all other cases, you as the commander must base your decisions on the laws in force.

I personally know of several cases here in Germany where continuing flight into adverse weather conditions by non IFR-rated (but obviously capable) pilots has resulted in accusations of "endagering the safety of an aeroplane and its occupants in grossly negligent manner". The prosecutors/authorities have won every time.

[Pace]

The prosecutors/authorities have won every time.

It is also the Captains position to stop a potential emergency situation arising.

The key here is to explain to ATC your predicament and your intentions.
To mislead ATC that you hold ratings that you dont or to say little when you have safer options available than taking an instrument approach will proabably result in a prosection.

But to have it recorded that you have entered adverse weather that you hold an IUK MCR rating and on the grounds of safety you would like vectors onto the XYZ ILS ???

The French who have no IMCR have a bad VFR fatality rate. Hence there is a move in France to push through an FAA style french PPL IR.

As EASA continue down their politically motivated regulation path and fail to follow their SAFETY mandate I can see more successful challenges in the courts based on safety against EASA.

I maybe wrong but regarding FAA IR v JAA IR I do not think there has been a prosecution against an FAA IR flying a JAA aircraft IFR?

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

There's an old saying "it's always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

You are a fool and deserve to have the book flown at you if, outside the UK, you deliberately plan to fly IMC on an IMC rating.

You are an even bigger fool if you get into a situation that you didn't expect, and you don't use IMC training to get you out of trouble if that is the solution which puts the aircraft and its occupants least in harms way. If you get prosecuted for this, tell the truth and let the local legal system do its worse - you'll still be alive to take the punishment, but the odds are any sensible legal system will not be particularly severe anyhow.

G

[Johnm]

I have been caught twice by worse than expected weather in Germany while an IMCR holder in both cases the safest course of action was to climb into IMC and seek a diversion to a VFR field which was organised with little or no drama. I wasn't even asked if I had a problem, so I suspect it's not that uncommon.

Similarly in France low cloud rolled in and screwed up my planned route royally. That time I was actually VFR on top and again with ATC help found a suitable alternative plan, though they had to work at it before we finally ended with Toussus le Noble as an alternative stop to Troyes.

[Sillert,V.I.]

Speaking very much from personal experience, I'd caution IMC holders to think very carefully before planning an international flight in dubious weather conditions. It's terribly easy to be tempted into pressing on and once the trap is sprung, you can very quickly run out of options.

I learned this the hard way and was lucky to escape with my life. Not being prosecuted & getting to keep my licence was an unexpected bonus.