Tiger Moth Crash
As much as it pains me to inform you...or not so much in this case...unless you are a member of the AAIB, you are not deemed eligible to determine the cause of this.
For the record this guy is by far the best, most experienced, not to mention the safest, pilot I have ever flown with. Need I remind you, you are all speculating using your alleged "intelligence" whereas maybe those who are generally worried will wait for the AAIB report before becoming Einstein.
I understand in the wake of an accident of this kind everyone becomes Sullenberger but seriously some suggestions are utterly ridiculous... We aren't talking about a new PPL with a few hours here.
Just remember all our fellow aviators, this is the chance we take when we step into and aircraft and line up. It isn't up to us to judge. And without becoming morbid, it could be anyone of us tomorrow.
For the record this guy is by far the best, most experienced, not to mention the safest, pilot I have ever flown with. Need I remind you, you are all speculating using your alleged "intelligence" whereas maybe those who are generally worried will wait for the AAIB report before becoming Einstein.
I understand in the wake of an accident of this kind everyone becomes Sullenberger but seriously some suggestions are utterly ridiculous... We aren't talking about a new PPL with a few hours here.
Just remember all our fellow aviators, this is the chance we take when we step into and aircraft and line up. It isn't up to us to judge. And without becoming morbid, it could be anyone of us tomorrow.
"It" could happen to anyone of us tomorrow, as you say; and if that one of us had happened to read about said problem and how to deal with it on PPRuNe today, the outcome might be happier.
You say that those who are "generally" worried will wait for the AAIB. I assume those of us with more specific worries have your permission to keep talking?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mat777
hoodie - eyewitness accounts in the newspaper report say the engine was out.
Originally Posted by mat777
hoodie - eyewitness accounts in the newspaper report say the engine was out.
Personally I don't mind speculation - I can't see why it would upset relatives any more than the terrible events themselves. Also it usually dies out when there is not much more that can be said without inspection of the wreckage and other factors.
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Hiska
Speculation helps make people think about what can go wrong and that makes us all safer. I think PP policy is to allow it provided it is done in a sensitive way. If you think this is not the case report it to the mods and if they agree the post or even the thread will be pulled. I have modified my operating procedures as a result of a thread similar to this and I fully support the idea that talking about accidents helps to prevent them even if the conversation drifts from the original accident. This is partly what PP is all about.
Rod1
Speculation helps make people think about what can go wrong and that makes us all safer. I think PP policy is to allow it provided it is done in a sensitive way. If you think this is not the case report it to the mods and if they agree the post or even the thread will be pulled. I have modified my operating procedures as a result of a thread similar to this and I fully support the idea that talking about accidents helps to prevent them even if the conversation drifts from the original accident. This is partly what PP is all about.
Rod1
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Accidents should definitely be discussed.
There are two problems with the AAIB reports (examples; not in any way related to this crash which I know nothing about):
1) They take for ever to come out and when they do almost everybody has forgotten about the accident
2) They tend to avoid discussing things which they consider are not relevant e.g. the pilot was a well known cowboy who got kicked out of five airfields for doing aerobatics with passengers 100ft above the runway, etc
These days, most flying knowledge is acquired from internet forums. Instructors just pass on the very basic stuff. Technical knowledge and operational knowledge is not really taught anywhere.
There are two problems with the AAIB reports (examples; not in any way related to this crash which I know nothing about):
1) They take for ever to come out and when they do almost everybody has forgotten about the accident
2) They tend to avoid discussing things which they consider are not relevant e.g. the pilot was a well known cowboy who got kicked out of five airfields for doing aerobatics with passengers 100ft above the runway, etc
These days, most flying knowledge is acquired from internet forums. Instructors just pass on the very basic stuff. Technical knowledge and operational knowledge is not really taught anywhere.
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Posts 43 and 45 perfectly sum up our basic policy. Learning and behavioural modification happens in the direct aftermath. Very few people ever gave up smoking after reading a report.
Not your cup of tea? Reading our threads hasn't yet been made compulsary.
Regards
Rob
Not your cup of tea? Reading our threads hasn't yet been made compulsary.
Regards
Rob
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The most competent experienced Tiger pilot I know spun one in. Luckily he was not too high and survived.
I do not want to add to speculation on here only to say that a lot of the comments are very wide of the mark .
The press read these posts and information not relevant to this accident will serve no purpose.
You will not learn anything from false information.
I am all for discussing the pros and cons of an accident report from the AAIB and in fact have found cases where they are saddly lacking and worthy of comment but that should not be on this thread IMHO.
I do not want to add to speculation on here only to say that a lot of the comments are very wide of the mark .
The press read these posts and information not relevant to this accident will serve no purpose.
You will not learn anything from false information.
I am all for discussing the pros and cons of an accident report from the AAIB and in fact have found cases where they are saddly lacking and worthy of comment but that should not be on this thread IMHO.
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Hiska no doubt knows personally the people involved in this event. He would prefer us to wait a year for the AAIB report.
Yet exchanging information, and even informed speculation on forums like these, vital safety points may indeed come promptly to our attention...and help us to be less likely to "take a chance when we step into an aircraft."
In particular, it helps to highlight particular aircraft or practices which lead to bad news.
Yet exchanging information, and even informed speculation on forums like these, vital safety points may indeed come promptly to our attention...and help us to be less likely to "take a chance when we step into an aircraft."
In particular, it helps to highlight particular aircraft or practices which lead to bad news.
Don't knock the media or their reports, you after all speculate from their immediate results. Without them few of you would have even known of the accident, let alone have some form of instant witnesses observations available to set you thinking.
And, yes, IMHO, any discussion helps reinforce one's own safety consciousness.
mikehallam.
And, yes, IMHO, any discussion helps reinforce one's own safety consciousness.
mikehallam.
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I think its the accuracy and therefore the potential to unintentionally lay the blame on the blameless aspect of the media that the forumites are knocking rather than the whole of the media.
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'These days, most flying knowledge is acquired from internet forums. Instructors just pass on the very basic stuff. Technical knowledge and operational knowledge is not really taught anywhere'.
To a point I agree, however, nothing, repeat nothing, can replace experience. From learning, from reading, from training, leads to us going it alone which gives us experience. The catch of course is no matter how well read, how well informed, and how experienced, there are times when things can catch us. The phrase, 'flying is not inherently dangerous, but is totally unforgiving', is so accurate. We read of the 20,000+ ATPL, who lands short, who forgets to lower the gear, who stalls on finals, the same errors that a newly qualified PPL can also make. Only by freely discussing, and learning some more, can we then perhaps go forward. I agree the AAIB reports are the ones we await, however, they would not tell us that the gust envelope was breached, that we entered an aerobatic manoeuvre too slow/fast, that we misjudged a freak tail wind etc. Transparency is key.
To a point I agree, however, nothing, repeat nothing, can replace experience. From learning, from reading, from training, leads to us going it alone which gives us experience. The catch of course is no matter how well read, how well informed, and how experienced, there are times when things can catch us. The phrase, 'flying is not inherently dangerous, but is totally unforgiving', is so accurate. We read of the 20,000+ ATPL, who lands short, who forgets to lower the gear, who stalls on finals, the same errors that a newly qualified PPL can also make. Only by freely discussing, and learning some more, can we then perhaps go forward. I agree the AAIB reports are the ones we await, however, they would not tell us that the gust envelope was breached, that we entered an aerobatic manoeuvre too slow/fast, that we misjudged a freak tail wind etc. Transparency is key.
I do not want to add to speculation on here only to say that a lot of the comments are very wide of the mark .
You will not learn anything from false information.
You will not learn anything from false information.
Good job!
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Originally Posted by hatzflyer
The most competent experienced Tiger pilot I know spun one in.
OC619
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I'm not referring to this specific accident here but... I've thought for some time now that the Tiger Moth has had a pretty poor accident record in the last few years and have wondered why. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the design - many years of RAF service are testament to that. The aircraft has some vices that can be mastered through training, a feature the RAF has always looked for in a primary trainer. So is there a trend of age related technical failures (I don't think so) or is there a human factors issue: dilution of experience and a new generation of pilots unfamiliar with some of the quirks of older aeroplanes (I wonder). I am aware of one UK accident that could be put down to gross mishandling and I wonder if some of the others may come from more insidious mishandling. Whatever the source of the trend, the Tiger seems to have racked up more than its fair share of AAIB reports in recent years.
It is only a few months since I wrote this:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ml#post5917141
It is only a few months since I wrote this:
One thing that I have been thinking for a while now is that the Tiger Moth has had a pretty bad run of luck over the last few years, or you could just say a downright bad accident rate given the number of airframes out there. I have pondered this and looked for any common factors or causes and although I do have some suspiscions, this is probably not the right place to voice them. One thing that is often said regarding the Tiger Moth, is that it is an easy aeroplane to fly but a difficult aeroplane to fly well - probably exactly the characteristic the RAF has always looked for in primary trainers.
Regarding the recent trend in the Tiger's accident rate, I'm at a bit of a loss. Of course there is the background static of random events - engine failures and suchlike, that may in part be related to the aging of the airframes, but I do also wonder if some of the accidents are perhaps related to a dilution of experience amongst the operators of the aircraft concerned. Are Tigers increasingly been flown by those with little or no experience of vintage tailwheel aircraft?
As I said I felt this 'trend' for a while now but have previously bitten my tongue. It's only about two months since the last write-off hence my mentioning it on this occasion. a quick google of 'AAIB Tiger Moth' provides a lot of reading material for a fairly uncommon aircraft type.
Anyone any thoughts?
As I said I felt this 'trend' for a while now but have previously bitten my tongue. It's only about two months since the last write-off hence my mentioning it on this occasion. a quick google of 'AAIB Tiger Moth' provides a lot of reading material for a fairly uncommon aircraft type.
Anyone any thoughts?
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Kat, your last post is exactly the sort of thing that I was trying to avoid.You are making wild statements and attacking me now. The whole thread degenerates into a slanging match with people trying to score points.
I don't have to justify myself to you ( or anyone else for that matter).
IF you are about to embark on a flight in a Tigermoth and you want some help, feel free to send me a PM or an email or ask for my phone no and I'll happily share my experience with you.
Meanwhile, sqabbling on here is rich pickings for those that want to make us all look stupid and gives no comfort to anyone on here who knows the crew of this unfortunate accident.
My post was not meant to come across as " I know something that you don't " .
If it came across as that then I apologies for not making it clearer.
What I was trying to say in the clearest way that I can put it is if you are not familiar with a given type and ( for instance) don't even know where the fuel tank is, or have never even sat in one let alone flown one then I don't think you are qualified to speculate.
I don't have to justify myself to you ( or anyone else for that matter).
IF you are about to embark on a flight in a Tigermoth and you want some help, feel free to send me a PM or an email or ask for my phone no and I'll happily share my experience with you.
Meanwhile, sqabbling on here is rich pickings for those that want to make us all look stupid and gives no comfort to anyone on here who knows the crew of this unfortunate accident.
My post was not meant to come across as " I know something that you don't " .
If it came across as that then I apologies for not making it clearer.
What I was trying to say in the clearest way that I can put it is if you are not familiar with a given type and ( for instance) don't even know where the fuel tank is, or have never even sat in one let alone flown one then I don't think you are qualified to speculate.
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What I was trying to say in the clearest way that I can put it is if you are not familiar with a given type and ( for instance) don't even know where the fuel tank is, or have never even sat in one let alone flown one then I don't think you are qualified to speculate.
Not that sitting in the front of one for what was a very memorable flight avails me of any great knowledge of the type but it was quite fun and I figured out the fuel tank position. No doubt as I continue to move backwards through aircraft evolution in my own flying PA-28 to PA-18 to DHC-1 ... it's only a matter of time before I get to fly a Tiger Moth as PIC too, so please speculate away guys for those of us who may benefit and are certainly not posting to win silly points, but because one day it really may be important information.
And hatzflyer, though you may be very knowledgeable you don't come across as particularly open. Fortunately the moth pilot who will no doubt teach me is far more down to earth about the realities of flying older aircraft.
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Reality...
One man dead another fighting for his life. It is v probable that I know one of them (the dH was CA based) ... and some cretins on here are posturing about the credentials to post.
I very rarely comment on threads like this unless it's one of my chums but I'd ask you to have a good look at what you are typing and ask yourselves, "Does this really add any value?"
I've owned a Tiger and have many hours in them. But guess what, I've no idea what happened and won't speculate.
The only hard thing about flying is the ground - how it ended up smiting it so hard, I know not , I'll wait until we have some real info rather than speculation.
Think before posting, please!
I very rarely comment on threads like this unless it's one of my chums but I'd ask you to have a good look at what you are typing and ask yourselves, "Does this really add any value?"
I've owned a Tiger and have many hours in them. But guess what, I've no idea what happened and won't speculate.
The only hard thing about flying is the ground - how it ended up smiting it so hard, I know not , I'll wait until we have some real info rather than speculation.
Think before posting, please!
Ich bin ein Prooner.
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I second Stiknruda's post entirely. The whole thread is crumbling into another slanging match. Come on, folks, Get some focus. As has been said earlier, other eyes will be reading this, and drawing wrong conclusions.