Crossing ATZ above 2000ft - need to call in?
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Crossing ATZ above 2000ft - need to call in?
I don't fly as much in the UK these days, so I'm a bit rusty on the regs. But here's what happened the day before yesterday I was flying from Lydd to Denham and had radar service from Farnborough. As you get squeezed between LCY and Stansted's airspace, you kind of have to go over Stapleford. I was at 2300ft.
Farnborough: "G-XXXX, Do you want to call Stapleford and then get back to me after the crossing?"
Me: "Do I have to?"
Farnborough: "If you're routing through, then yes. But if you avoid it you don't, of course".
I though I was clear as the ATZ only goes to 2000ft AAL, no? Why did she ask me to call in - she had my height info as she just beforehand had called out traffic to me. Anyway, I tracked around it. No huge thing, but I'm just curious if I've missed something pertinent.
Farnborough: "G-XXXX, Do you want to call Stapleford and then get back to me after the crossing?"
Me: "Do I have to?"
Farnborough: "If you're routing through, then yes. But if you avoid it you don't, of course".
I though I was clear as the ATZ only goes to 2000ft AAL, no? Why did she ask me to call in - she had my height info as she just beforehand had called out traffic to me. Anyway, I tracked around it. No huge thing, but I'm just curious if I've missed something pertinent.
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Just seems like common sense that if you are routing over someones ATZ you would talk to them.
I was always taught to, don't see the problem.
It might not apply to Stapleford, but it could be there is a temporary aerobatics box over the airfield, parachute dropping etc. These are reasons I can think of that might make a quick call very worthwhile before routing over an ATZ. Fair enough if you have done your planning you should know already but a quick call, 'G-XX blah blah radio routing overhead for known traffic' could save you spoiling yours or someone else's day.
I use to fly with a pilot who would say 'I never talk to them, I'm above the ATZ so why bother' add to that a thousand other lapses in airmanship and you'll understand why I say 'use to fly with'.
I was always taught to, don't see the problem.
It might not apply to Stapleford, but it could be there is a temporary aerobatics box over the airfield, parachute dropping etc. These are reasons I can think of that might make a quick call very worthwhile before routing over an ATZ. Fair enough if you have done your planning you should know already but a quick call, 'G-XX blah blah radio routing overhead for known traffic' could save you spoiling yours or someone else's day.
I use to fly with a pilot who would say 'I never talk to them, I'm above the ATZ so why bother' add to that a thousand other lapses in airmanship and you'll understand why I say 'use to fly with'.
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^^^ What he said ^^^
Although you are not required to talk to them, you are much closer to them so they can give you much more relevant information which Farnborough can't. I've not known of any meat bombing there (sky divers) but there's loads of flying training along with the general chaos which that creates. And what about the aircraft that just took off without a transponder, or the aircraft which is doing a practice forced landing from the overhead (joining from above the ATZ)
There are plenty of things which you don't have to do in this game, but it's still a good idea to do them. That's almost the definition of airmanship.
Although you are not required to talk to them, you are much closer to them so they can give you much more relevant information which Farnborough can't. I've not known of any meat bombing there (sky divers) but there's loads of flying training along with the general chaos which that creates. And what about the aircraft that just took off without a transponder, or the aircraft which is doing a practice forced landing from the overhead (joining from above the ATZ)
There are plenty of things which you don't have to do in this game, but it's still a good idea to do them. That's almost the definition of airmanship.
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I would normally call in out of courtesy, but up there where it can be rather busy, I'd prefer to stay with the radar service. There have been some close encounters there on previous flights. And sure enough, tracking around it to the south I had two aircraft departing from Stapleford that climbed towards me in a turn. It would have been safer going over the top of the airfield.
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You don't need to call them legally if above 2000ft AAL.
It is often said you should, but ask yourself the question of what exactly this will do with Stapleford which has
- no ATC
- no radar
- no obligation to pass traffic info to you
- no means to pass reliable traffic into to anybody (because of no radar)
- no obligation to tell anybody else about you
- without radar, subject to the usual tricks of inbound pilots being "vague" about their position
It is far better to give them a wide berth, say 5nm, and not talk to them. Or transit at a much higher level, say 4000ft AAL, but you can't do that in this case because of CAS.
I never call up aerodromes like that. Can't see the point.
It is often said you should, but ask yourself the question of what exactly this will do with Stapleford which has
- no ATC
- no radar
- no obligation to pass traffic info to you
- no means to pass reliable traffic into to anybody (because of no radar)
- no obligation to tell anybody else about you
- without radar, subject to the usual tricks of inbound pilots being "vague" about their position
It is far better to give them a wide berth, say 5nm, and not talk to them. Or transit at a much higher level, say 4000ft AAL, but you can't do that in this case because of CAS.
I never call up aerodromes like that. Can't see the point.
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You were at 2300 QNH, stapleford elevation is 185 feet so you were 115 feet above the ATZ. Personally if i were transitting that close laterally and vertically to an ATZ of what is a reasonably active GA airfield I would have taken up Farnboro's offer of call and return or have called them myself on box 2...... lots of UK airfields like their overhead joins.
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I would normally call in out of courtesy, but up there where it can be rather busy, I'd prefer to stay with the radar service. There have been some close encounters there on previous flights. And sure enough, tracking around it to the south I had two aircraft departing from Stapleford that climbed towards me in a turn. It would have been safer going over the top of the airfield.
It's perhaps unfair for Farnborough to have put pressure on a call you technically don't have to make. My own view and I've routed over Stapleford often as I can't really see how to avoid it at times, is for the very short time one is talking to them the radar service is not as important as eyeballs on sticks. Not only have you got the flying training, you also have the LAM VOR and everyone who wants to squeeze between London City CTR and and Stansted CTA in the same airspace. The available headroom over the ATZ isn't a lot either so expect traffic from all directions at your level.
On the one hand I can see why you would want to stick to your radar service, on the other quite frankly in VFR you are much more into the realms of see and avoid, much like being in the vicinity of any busy club circuit without full ATC.
My point being, would you totally rely on a radar service in an area with flying training, people doing navigation turns in the same airspace etc etc. I wouldn't, there isn't time for them to warn you.
Last edited by Conventional Gear; 14th May 2011 at 14:56.
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Stapleford is quite a choke point vertically, with the ATZ up to 2185 and then the LTMA at 2500, so any other traffic is prob90 at 2300 as well.
Even if Stapleford have nothing to say, a call means other traffic on frequency can hear me and I can hear them.
Even if Stapleford have nothing to say, a call means other traffic on frequency can hear me and I can hear them.
It is far better to give them a wide berth, say 5nm, and not talk to them. Or transit at a much higher level, say 4000ft AAL, but you can't do that in this case because of CAS.
I've not had Farnborough ask me to change to Stapleford, and if I were getting a Traffic Service then I probably wouldn't volunteer to. However, if Farnborough recommended I did, I might take that as "there's lots of stuff there I haven't got time to warn you about, but is likely to be talking to Stapleford".
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My solution is to not fly in that area 
Otherwise, I would pass N of Stapleford at 1400 ft, well outside their ATZ and keeping a very good lookout (an awful lot of UK GA flies at 1000-1500ft) and getting out of there really fast.
On a busy day you won't get a radar service out of Farnborough anyway...
Otherwise, I would pass N of Stapleford at 1400 ft, well outside their ATZ and keeping a very good lookout (an awful lot of UK GA flies at 1000-1500ft) and getting out of there really fast.
On a busy day you won't get a radar service out of Farnborough anyway...
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I was doing the same a couple of weekends ago routing from the west overhead Stapleford and on to Earls Colne, with Farnborough Radar. On the way there, Farnborough radar asked for my intentions as I was approaching the Stapleford ATZ. I replied I intended to go through the overhead at 2200+ feet. They seemed happy with that and I remained with them.
On the way back as I was approaching the ATZ, I was asked whether I would like to change to Stapleford A/G for a few minutes, but retain squawk. So I said yes and did it that way.
I am a new PPL so on my return to base asked one of my instructors what was the most professional and/or safe way to do it. His view was negotiate a transit of the ATZ (which I take to mean do not necessarily squeeze above it and below London) or if not possible then go to the south of the ATZ. On reflection, I am inclined to think going to the south makes it more likely you will meet conflicting traffic arriving and departing from Stapleford, so my inclination is overhead is better.
On the way back as I was approaching the ATZ, I was asked whether I would like to change to Stapleford A/G for a few minutes, but retain squawk. So I said yes and did it that way.
I am a new PPL so on my return to base asked one of my instructors what was the most professional and/or safe way to do it. His view was negotiate a transit of the ATZ (which I take to mean do not necessarily squeeze above it and below London) or if not possible then go to the south of the ATZ. On reflection, I am inclined to think going to the south makes it more likely you will meet conflicting traffic arriving and departing from Stapleford, so my inclination is overhead is better.
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On VFR days, I tend to stick Stapleford on box two just for a little aerodrome awareness, but I'm with IO540 inasmuchas once above their ATZ - and working Farnborough for a traffic service - there isn't much that Stapleford can usefully tell me. On the occasions that I have called, the FISO has invariably sounded rather put out that anyone should waste his time by calling up, when the most info that he can give me is the local QNH.
On IFR days, I wouldn't bother to even put them on box2.
On IFR days, I wouldn't bother to even put them on box2.
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Otherwise, I would pass N of Stapleford at 1400 ft, well outside their ATZ and keeping a very good lookout (an awful lot of UK GA flies at 1000-1500ft) and getting out of there really fast.
On a busy day you won't get a radar service out of Farnborough anyway...
On a busy day you won't get a radar service out of Farnborough anyway...
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I know I bang on about this, but this also illustrates the need for really accurate navigation, which is possible only with a GPS.
When you have gaps of a few miles to fly through and you have to do it accurately to one side of the gap, etc, it cannot be done (reliably) by flying precalculated wind corrected headings.
With a decent GPS it is very easy to avoid ATZs, DAs, published gliding sites, and all the other stuff.
When you have gaps of a few miles to fly through and you have to do it accurately to one side of the gap, etc, it cannot be done (reliably) by flying precalculated wind corrected headings.
With a decent GPS it is very easy to avoid ATZs, DAs, published gliding sites, and all the other stuff.
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You do bang on about it, if you are in the transponder mandatory zone all you need is DME tuned into 110.5
If it reads more than 8.0 (8.5 if you worry about slant accuracy etc) you are outside the CTR and no worries.
I like GPS but have navigated this 'Gap' many times without needing GPS
If it reads more than 8.0 (8.5 if you worry about slant accuracy etc) you are outside the CTR and no worries.
I like GPS but have navigated this 'Gap' many times without needing GPS
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The aircraft I was flying is an old rental from Lydd Aero Club. I'm not going to spend as much as a pound getting a portable GPS when I only fly here a coupe of times a year. If it was my own aircraft, it'd be a different story. So it had to be done old school.
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Well, if you intend to do what you say, you'll have to talk to either Farnborough radar, Essex radar or Stansted to get permission to enter the transponder mandatory zone which is 'restricted airspace'.
).No need to talk to anyone to go thru' the TMZ, just Squawk inc. 'C'.
but this also illustrates the need for really accurate navigation, which is possible only with a GPS
I don't disagree that a GPS is useful in certain circumstances. However, it is rarely taught as part of the nav syllabus, and as a consequence, few use it as part of a normal navigation cycle of events
NoD
PS Re the original qu. If you do not know the airfield, then close to the ATZ might be "prudent" to give them a call. No rule to say so, but airmanship / AIRPROX board, might suggest it is good. Certain airfields, as you get familiar, might lead you not to bother next time. Alternatively, maybe just listen. Inside Stapleford ATZ is probably as safe as it gets, its circuit traffic tends to be outside
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Quote:
Well, if you intend to do what you say, you'll have to talk to either Farnborough radar, Essex radar or Stansted to get permission to enter the transponder mandatory zone which is 'restricted airspace'.
It's a Transponder Mandatory Zone, not a Radio Mandatory Zone (at least not until the Olympics ).
No need to talk to anyone to go thru' the TMZ, just Squawk inc. 'C'.
Well, if you intend to do what you say, you'll have to talk to either Farnborough radar, Essex radar or Stansted to get permission to enter the transponder mandatory zone which is 'restricted airspace'.
It's a Transponder Mandatory Zone, not a Radio Mandatory Zone (at least not until the Olympics ).
No need to talk to anyone to go thru' the TMZ, just Squawk inc. 'C'.
Thanks for the correction, perhaps I was thinking of non-transponder equipped aircraft entering the zone needing permission. As is I can't find the reference that I had that stated one needed to call one of the services before entering the zone. Anyone have a reference to the correct procedure?
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To present the alternative argument, I recall on a rather busy day trying to get into goodwood, along with umpteen other aircraft, and having been asked to report base, spending the half the downwind leg, and a good chunk of base listening to some 'warrior' giving his life story punctuated by uhmmm, err, etc, to finally announce he was passing overhead at 3000. Seriously, who cares, get off the d**n frequency.. A severe example, granted, but you get the idea. Perhaps a case for applying judgement and common sense.