Crossing ATZ above 2000ft - need to call in?
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Just some hair splitting:
The accuracy of an altimeter (cf ICAO Doc 8168) should be +/-60ft
So I should make sure to fly below 2440 and above 2245 to make sure I'm out of the ATZ and out of the LTMA.
Let's say I choose to fly in the middle, at 2342.5 ft
I have to keep my altitude within +/- 97.5ft, which is more accurate than PPL standards (+/- 150ft) and even CPL standards (+/- 100ft).
The accuracy of an altimeter (cf ICAO Doc 8168) should be +/-60ft
So I should make sure to fly below 2440 and above 2245 to make sure I'm out of the ATZ and out of the LTMA.
Let's say I choose to fly in the middle, at 2342.5 ft
I have to keep my altitude within +/- 97.5ft, which is more accurate than PPL standards (+/- 150ft) and even CPL standards (+/- 100ft).
"2,480' it says here," I said.
"OK, fine, thanks," said the controller.
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It was probably Farnborough just making sure you knew where you were. Then, if you descended slightly and infringed, they could say they had warned you.
I would have thought that Farnborough could see any conflicting traffic better then the A/G radio, so stay with them.
I would have thought that Farnborough could see any conflicting traffic better then the A/G radio, so stay with them.
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Only a numpty would fly overhead an active gliding site, although you may be "in your rights to go overhead the ATZ".
I have to keep my altitude within +/- 97.5ft, which is more accurate than PPL standards (+/- 150ft) and even CPL standards (+/- 100ft).
Nice analysis. You reminded me of my IR instructor: "I don't care what the standard says, I want that needle bisecting the 0!"
A very nice guy who went on to be a Transport Canada Examiner.
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Folks, I am amazed such a discussion got so lengthy and thought to add some to it. First, this is one of the reason I have a 2 COM configuration. If LARS tells me to call in at an airfield frequency, I do, because I assume there is something in the air they see, know or expect. Second, if I go over such a place as mentioned I always monitor the airfield frequency. Third, if the airfield I am passing over does have little traffic, I am able to follow on COM 2 what is going on and I add it to my picture of traffic. Forth, if I hear possibly conflicting traffic on the airfield frequency I give a call - usually to the aircraft, not the field. Fifth, if the airfield frequency is busy I always give a call to all stations, as THEY have to know I am up there. I had not only once a fast one departing high speed and leaving zone to the above. They are not only departing sideways, as most of the times from CTR. Departing aircraft can come from underneath you! So, there might not be a need to call in, but reasons.
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if I hear possibly conflicting traffic on the airfield frequency I give a call - usually to the aircraft, not the field. Fifth, if the airfield frequency is busy I always give a call to all stations, as THEY have to know I am up there
k me! I really hope you don't do either of those. Apart from being in contravention to your licence, acting as if you know what's best for everybody else on frequency is not going to help safety at all - you're just going to really annoy people.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ding-site.html
Hippo123, I'd have thought that the answer to your question was obvious. Have a look at the above thread.
As an ex CFI and FIC instructor, there is no way I would advocate to any of my students to fly near to an active gliding site when there are other options.
500 above - Please could you (or anyone else) kindly explain to this numpty why it is inherently more dangerous to fly above the ATZ of a glider site (non winch), than close to its edge at a lower altitude?
As an ex CFI and FIC instructor, there is no way I would advocate to any of my students to fly near to an active gliding site when there are other options.
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Who might I meet overhead the airfield above the ATZ?
1 a pilot who is passing by just like me.
If he/she is the sort of pilot who does not like calling, I won't hear of him/her on either frequency.
If he/she has a transponder, LARS will hopefully tell me if the flight paths are conflicting, Stapleford won't.
If he/she was in contact with LARS and had left them to call the airfield as she/he planned to fly overhead, chances are that LARS will tell me about it. On Stapleford frequency, I normally should ear of him/her, but not sure, he/she might have made the call just before I started to listen, A/G might be very busy, A/G might not be attended etc.
So I think that the winner is LARS in that case.
2 a pilot who is leaving or entering the circuit.
He has no reason to fly overhead above the ATZ if he is just joining or leaving.
Even an instructor who would want to practice a gliding approach from overhead would probably not fly above the ATZ.
So I can't see any reason for a pilot intending to join, leave, or stay in the vicinity of Stapleford to fly above the ATZ.
So I think I will continue to stay with LARS on com 1, and listen to Stapleford on com2.
An additional benefit is that a change of frequency is always distracting.
1 a pilot who is passing by just like me.
If he/she is the sort of pilot who does not like calling, I won't hear of him/her on either frequency.
If he/she has a transponder, LARS will hopefully tell me if the flight paths are conflicting, Stapleford won't.
If he/she was in contact with LARS and had left them to call the airfield as she/he planned to fly overhead, chances are that LARS will tell me about it. On Stapleford frequency, I normally should ear of him/her, but not sure, he/she might have made the call just before I started to listen, A/G might be very busy, A/G might not be attended etc.
So I think that the winner is LARS in that case.
2 a pilot who is leaving or entering the circuit.
He has no reason to fly overhead above the ATZ if he is just joining or leaving.
Even an instructor who would want to practice a gliding approach from overhead would probably not fly above the ATZ.
So I can't see any reason for a pilot intending to join, leave, or stay in the vicinity of Stapleford to fly above the ATZ.
So I think I will continue to stay with LARS on com 1, and listen to Stapleford on com2.
An additional benefit is that a change of frequency is always distracting.
Last edited by 172510; 3rd Sep 2014 at 19:37.
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Navigating over a gliding site
Quote:
500 above - Please could you (or anyone else) kindly explain to this numpty why it is inherently more dangerous to fly above the ATZ of a glider site (non winch), than close to its edge at a lower altitude?
Hippo123, I'd have thought that the answer to your question was obvious. Have a look at the above thread.
As an ex CFI and FIC instructor, there is no way I would advocate to any of my students to fly near to an active gliding site when there are other options.
I had quickly gone over the thread you linked to before posting my question here; I've checked again and I don't believe it answers my question.
The only post that I thought came close to an answer, stated that (winch-launched) gliders will climb and keep on climbing directly over the field. But is this always the case? I don't know anything about glider operations.
Just stating outright that it's a bad idea, that people who do it aren't very clever, or that it's obvious why it shouldn't be done: they might be true, but these are never valid explanations for anything.
I suppose I should add that I always give gliding sites a very wide berth when I'm out and about, in case any glider pilots here are starting to get worried... (if there are any of you here perhaps you could kindly answer my question).
Last edited by hippo123; 3rd Sep 2014 at 13:36.
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I certainly am very nervy when flying close to an active gliding club, esp when they are a known winch launching site
Wycombe, from my memory is aerotow only and generally they tow out to Stokenchurch and tend to operate to the west. Rarely are they to the east of the field but sometimes are circling overhead.
For me, the safest place is usually to the east although I will check to see if overhead is an option - it often is.
This doesn't apply to other gliding sites - I stay well away, having had years as a glider pilot shouting at numpty power pilots!!!
Wycombe, from my memory is aerotow only and generally they tow out to Stokenchurch and tend to operate to the west. Rarely are they to the east of the field but sometimes are circling overhead.
For me, the safest place is usually to the east although I will check to see if overhead is an option - it often is.
This doesn't apply to other gliding sites - I stay well away, having had years as a glider pilot shouting at numpty power pilots!!!
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2001 feet AAL
You are quite right, you don't need to speak to the aerodrome when above 2000' AAL. If you've got nothing else to do then no harm in speaking to them but when you are having to get rid of Farnborough to call them its probably easier to stay with Farn. If you've checked Notams and you know there is no aero box etc then all they are going to do is say keep a good lookout for an aircraft joining.........etc. So why not just keep a good lookout anyway and stay with Farnborough!
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Even an instructor who would want to practice a gliding approach from overhead would probably not fly above the ATZ.
I object. In continental Europe, practice security glide landings usually according to syllabus start from 2.000 - 2.200 ft above airfield - to have a 4 minute glide at -500 ft/sec. If you have 200 ft elevation, this gives some probability for someone at 2.400 ft, not much space if you cross 2.500 ft. So, it is quite common for them to reach above the zone and yes, you have to have a lookout.
I object. In continental Europe, practice security glide landings usually according to syllabus start from 2.000 - 2.200 ft above airfield - to have a 4 minute glide at -500 ft/sec. If you have 200 ft elevation, this gives some probability for someone at 2.400 ft, not much space if you cross 2.500 ft. So, it is quite common for them to reach above the zone and yes, you have to have a lookout.
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Reading this thread has re-confirmed three points for me:
1) most a/c have two com boxes. Use them. LARS as primary, a/g listening.
2) for the sake of a few minutes, route to the south of stapleford (or if you're feeling lucky a zone crossing of stansted)
3) what a complete waste of time a basic (any non radar derived) service is - in the busy areas of the south east. Ie I sometimes feel you get the same utility from talking to an a/g as you do from a lars BS !!
1) most a/c have two com boxes. Use them. LARS as primary, a/g listening.
2) for the sake of a few minutes, route to the south of stapleford (or if you're feeling lucky a zone crossing of stansted)
3) what a complete waste of time a basic (any non radar derived) service is - in the busy areas of the south east. Ie I sometimes feel you get the same utility from talking to an a/g as you do from a lars BS !!
3) what a complete waste of time a basic (any non radar derived) service is - in the busy areas of the south east. Ie I sometimes feel you get the same utility from talking to an a/g as you do from a lars BS !!
