tree-fife-niner
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Speak c l e a r l y
I spend my time in Europe and just to make sure, I speak as clearly as I can with people who's first language isn't English (I also do the same with the Brits). Having said that, most controller's English is usually pretty good but even so, I still say "Tree - Fife - Niner" and all that sort of stuff because it makes it simpler for people to understand what I have said.
PM
PM
Does it occur to anyone that the ICAO phonetic versions are merely the best attempt to indicate the normal, clear English pronunciation? I have English as my first language and do not need to be told how to pronounce "one" but many other people would need it clarified because of our rather strange spelling. The fact that the pronunciation is specified as "wun" does not require me to speak any differently.
About 2 and 3, as Tarq57 says:
2 s
About 2 and 3, as Tarq57 says:
the most important annunciation to prevent confusion is the "ee" sound. Likewise with "two" the "oo" sound should be clear.
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It depends on the comms environment...the harder/more confusing/poorer the comms conditions, the greater the need for technical precision. It also depends on your knowledge and experience to know what matters and what doesn't.
I manage to communicate with simple english nearly all the time, When there is a miss, revert right away to the phonetic language. If that clears things up, great. I don't launch into long spelling out of communcations, unless it is apparent that it will be required for clarity.
North Americian VFR controlled airspace seems to me to be generally a place of fairly understandable English, though with differing accents. It is only more recently that pilots and students from far away places are more prominent. Certainly I have heard uninteligible radio transmissions in recent years, which have resulted in the controller replying "Remain clear of the airspace".
However, where the communication has been clear and understandable, I cannot recall a controller being fussy as to pronuciation, or the use of the phonetic language.
Makes good sport from the Continent, too.
Serve them right for wanting to be a bit of both!
As to the subject of this interesting conversation: as the suspense grew, I could no longer refrain from looking it up in my old ground class syllabus. Now guess what I found there?
3 Three
5 Five
9 Niner
so I guess the FIFE and TREE are just another UK peculiarity. Again, I cannot imagine the difference to be discernable on the average G/A comm's radio. The whole argument seems rather moot, to me.
As for Day-See-Mal: I never heard that, always dee-see-mol
Serve them right for wanting to be a bit of both!
As to the subject of this interesting conversation: as the suspense grew, I could no longer refrain from looking it up in my old ground class syllabus. Now guess what I found there?
3 Three
5 Five
9 Niner
so I guess the FIFE and TREE are just another UK peculiarity. Again, I cannot imagine the difference to be discernable on the average G/A comm's radio. The whole argument seems rather moot, to me.
As for Day-See-Mal: I never heard that, always dee-see-mol
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I think 2s is correct when saying: "Does it occur to anyone that the ICAO phonetic versions are merely the best attempt to indicate the normal, clear English pronunciation?"
Tree-fife-niner sounds a bit Irish to me...
Cheers
Tree-fife-niner sounds a bit Irish to me...
Cheers
Agreed as regards the 3 and 5. For the 9, I understand the final R was added specifically to avoid confusion with 5.
2 s
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Pilot DAR, would you seriously recommend that phonetic alphabet as an alternative? I see plenty of opportunities for confusion:
- The sound of 'Eugene' suggests a word that starts with U, rather than E. If I remember correctly, the ICAO for X used to be 'Extra', before they changed it to 'X-ray', precisely to avoid this sort of confusion.
- 'Greco' would be very easily confused with the ICAO 'Echo'.
- 'Julio' is unambiguous only to Spanish speakers; in English, 'J' never sounds like who.
- I wonder how many aviation professionals know what xylene is, how it is pronounced or spelled...
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Moreflaps comment that "Tree-fife-niner sounds a bit Irish to me..." struck a chord with me. I'm currently training, and thus trying to get into good habits, but I always find that my landing call for runway 34 results in me sounding like I am putting on an irish accent. It's the 'tree' that does it - every time.
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I read "tree", "fife", "nine-hole" and thought this was another Biggles thread 
(forgot to add the nine-hole bit first time round!!)
(forgot to add the nine-hole bit first time round!!)
Last edited by Slopey; 2nd May 2011 at 08:16.
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Pilot DAR, would you seriously recommend that phonetic alphabet as an alternative? I see plenty of opportunities for confusion:
Though a few of the words of the present phonetic language may seem a little odd, it its the world standard, and as such, very appropriate as a tool for clear communications. As is probably common with students of radio work, we have all of our voluneer firefighters practice it while driving, reading licence plates.
By the way, I agree with Jan; THREE, FIVE, NINER.
I have never, in 34 years of flying, been challenged as to my pronunciation with the phonetic language, even when I did just say "NINE".
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The story goes that one night, over darkest India, where comms are notoriously por, Nigel (for it was he) was becoming increasingly frustrated with the Indian controller's attempts to pass a clearance.
Nigel "Enunciate your vowels, man, eeenunciate!"
Anonymous voice of a laid-back Cousin "Aaasshole! Is that better?"
Nigel "Enunciate your vowels, man, eeenunciate!"
Anonymous voice of a laid-back Cousin "Aaasshole! Is that better?"
Why do it if it's not fun?
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The UK position is very clear, and is defined in CAP413. I've been trying to find an official ICAO reference, to see if the UK is different to ICAO, but I can't anything official on-line. The best I can find is this Wikipedia article.
As far as I can tell, the UK is not peculiar in using TREE and FIFE. The Wikipedia article gives these pronunciations, says that they have come from FAA and ICAO publications, and doesn't include any notes about them being specific to any particular country. (It does contain lots of other country-specific information, so it is reasonable to take the lack of information as an indication that the author believes the information is applicable internationally.)
There are a couple of things which make the UK unique though. The first is that this is our native language. The use of "T" at the beginning of "three" can be easily explained by the fact that a "TH" sound is difficult for many foreign language speakers, because it isn't a sound which is used in their own language - so it makes perfect sense to prescribe "TREE" as the correct pronunciation for international use. But, as native speakers, it is much easier for us to use "three", and when the listener is also a native English speaker there really isn't any possibility of confusion. Although officially it's not correct, I can't see any reason why anyone applying any common sense would object to it.
The other thing which makes the UK unique as that we, as a race, seem to like analysing minutiae like this, while the rest of the world just gets on with it!
FFF
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As far as I can tell, the UK is not peculiar in using TREE and FIFE. The Wikipedia article gives these pronunciations, says that they have come from FAA and ICAO publications, and doesn't include any notes about them being specific to any particular country. (It does contain lots of other country-specific information, so it is reasonable to take the lack of information as an indication that the author believes the information is applicable internationally.)
There are a couple of things which make the UK unique though. The first is that this is our native language. The use of "T" at the beginning of "three" can be easily explained by the fact that a "TH" sound is difficult for many foreign language speakers, because it isn't a sound which is used in their own language - so it makes perfect sense to prescribe "TREE" as the correct pronunciation for international use. But, as native speakers, it is much easier for us to use "three", and when the listener is also a native English speaker there really isn't any possibility of confusion. Although officially it's not correct, I can't see any reason why anyone applying any common sense would object to it.
The other thing which makes the UK unique as that we, as a race, seem to like analysing minutiae like this, while the rest of the world just gets on with it!
FFF
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They aren't however, the ICAO Manual at page 19 is very clear:
Ze-ro
Wun
Too
Tree
FOW-er
Fife
Six
SEV-en
Ait
NIN-er
Dey-See-Mal
...
G
Ze-ro
Wun
Too
Tree
FOW-er
Fife
Six
SEV-en
Ait
NIN-er
Dey-See-Mal
...
G