Can I afford to buy an aircraft?
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Can I afford to buy an aircraft?
I have been looking for a good single engine IR machine, C182 or something of that nature.
I have 70K I can outlay and realistically can afford 600 per month to run the thing. Having never owned an aircraft I feel unsure whether to jump in so wondered if any experienced owners felt I was stretching myself. Also I am worried about the 100ll situation, dont want to be left with a pup no one wants!
any thoughts?
I have 70K I can outlay and realistically can afford 600 per month to run the thing. Having never owned an aircraft I feel unsure whether to jump in so wondered if any experienced owners felt I was stretching myself. Also I am worried about the 100ll situation, dont want to be left with a pup no one wants!
any thoughts?
Hi,
I operate a classic Mooney. Generally, I can recommend ownership for the very fact that it does give you access to YOUR plane, whenever you want and without "conditions" such as minimum flight time per day of rental e.t.c.
Yet, with 70k, I'd wonder if you would not want to go for a cheaper buy and reserve the rest of the money for running and keeping it. In todays market, you should be able to find deals considerably lower than 70k for fairly interesting airplanes, many of them IFR equipped.
Currently, I see an IFR Arrow I advertized for 40k Euros (G-Reg), another one for 45k, or even an IFR Twin (Cougar) in the UK for around 50k Euros with zero time engines (on planecheck after a 10 minutes search). That is only in the UK! If you go to the continent, you'll find loads of planes IFR certified for considerably less money. This gives you the reserves for unexpected things (they do occurr) and also the money to actually fly the thing or to add what you might want (such as autopilots, other upgrades). And these are "asking" prices, they are most definitly negotiable.
You need to define your profile. What do you want to do? Are you comfortable to fly SE IFR in the UK? If you prefer 2 engines, look at the Cougar just for starters. How many people do you carry? What range do you need?
Check out the aircraft types. Cessnas are nice but usually more expensive than comparable other types such as older Pipers. An Arrow I is not necessarily a C182 when it comes to load. There are Mooneys out there, especcially those with manual gear and flaps are fairly cheap to maintain in comparison with others. I can see several, one of them IFR in France for 45k (M20F, electrical gear). They are more economical than an Arrow will be and this is a long body one.
Ownership below 100 hours per year is problematic, 100 hours is about the minimum where you will "break even" with charter prices in my experience. Possibly you want to involve a 2nd pilot, be it (if that is allowed in the UK) as a "renter" or a "minority owner", which would give you someone to move the plane when, and only then, you don't need it yourself but help you get the hours together. I do that and I am very happy with the way things work out.
Do look around. Find someone you can trust to advise you. Beware of envy ridden folks at the airport pub who will dish out any horror story they can come up with, just because THEY never got to own an airplane and don't want you to give it up. Talk to owners, not sellers, not renters. Owners have been there, got the T-Shirt and will talk shop. They will tell you who to approach for maintenance, for insurance, how much and what else you need to know.
Buying your first airplane is a great adventure and a thoroughly fun thing to do. It took me 3 years, and it was my 2nd, but I learnt a lot.
If I can be of help in any way, do not hesitate to ask. Apart, you have some very experienced owners in here such as IO540 and several others. So you've come to the right place
Best regards
AN2 Driver
LSZH
I operate a classic Mooney. Generally, I can recommend ownership for the very fact that it does give you access to YOUR plane, whenever you want and without "conditions" such as minimum flight time per day of rental e.t.c.
Yet, with 70k, I'd wonder if you would not want to go for a cheaper buy and reserve the rest of the money for running and keeping it. In todays market, you should be able to find deals considerably lower than 70k for fairly interesting airplanes, many of them IFR equipped.
Currently, I see an IFR Arrow I advertized for 40k Euros (G-Reg), another one for 45k, or even an IFR Twin (Cougar) in the UK for around 50k Euros with zero time engines (on planecheck after a 10 minutes search). That is only in the UK! If you go to the continent, you'll find loads of planes IFR certified for considerably less money. This gives you the reserves for unexpected things (they do occurr) and also the money to actually fly the thing or to add what you might want (such as autopilots, other upgrades). And these are "asking" prices, they are most definitly negotiable.
You need to define your profile. What do you want to do? Are you comfortable to fly SE IFR in the UK? If you prefer 2 engines, look at the Cougar just for starters. How many people do you carry? What range do you need?
Check out the aircraft types. Cessnas are nice but usually more expensive than comparable other types such as older Pipers. An Arrow I is not necessarily a C182 when it comes to load. There are Mooneys out there, especcially those with manual gear and flaps are fairly cheap to maintain in comparison with others. I can see several, one of them IFR in France for 45k (M20F, electrical gear). They are more economical than an Arrow will be and this is a long body one.
Ownership below 100 hours per year is problematic, 100 hours is about the minimum where you will "break even" with charter prices in my experience. Possibly you want to involve a 2nd pilot, be it (if that is allowed in the UK) as a "renter" or a "minority owner", which would give you someone to move the plane when, and only then, you don't need it yourself but help you get the hours together. I do that and I am very happy with the way things work out.
Do look around. Find someone you can trust to advise you. Beware of envy ridden folks at the airport pub who will dish out any horror story they can come up with, just because THEY never got to own an airplane and don't want you to give it up. Talk to owners, not sellers, not renters. Owners have been there, got the T-Shirt and will talk shop. They will tell you who to approach for maintenance, for insurance, how much and what else you need to know.
Buying your first airplane is a great adventure and a thoroughly fun thing to do. It took me 3 years, and it was my 2nd, but I learnt a lot.
If I can be of help in any way, do not hesitate to ask. Apart, you have some very experienced owners in here such as IO540 and several others. So you've come to the right place
Best regards
AN2 Driver
LSZH
I've sole owned one, and to date part owned six aeroplanes, and done a fair bit of touring.
I don't, personally, think your profile makes sense for a sole-owned aeroplane. Also, I've learned the hard way that if you own all an aeroplane you get all the flying, but all the effort of looking after it. If, say, you own a quarter, you get as much flying in reality, but only a quarter of the effort of looking after it.
Plus, a large chunk of ownership costs are fixed - hangerage/tie-down, insurance, annual - and money saved sharing these, can be spent on flying (or just not spent!).
As several have said, your budget would buy a big share in a very capable aeroplane, and your budget would then cover a lot of flying. I honestly doubt that below 1/6th share, you'll often notice the other owners are flying it, and personally having owned from 1/2 to 1/20th, I've rarely noticed any other owner wanting use of the aeroplane. 100hrs x 6 pilots touring (and trust me, not everybody will fly it that much) is still only around 50% utilisation.
For example, there's 1/8th of a very nice looking C182 for sale on the web at the moment, £11k, then at your budget of £600/mth, 50ish hrs per year; another advert shows 1/5th of an Arrow IV for similar purchase price and will get you about 40hrs.pa for your budget, a TB9 share advertised in Exeter at the moment will get you about 70hrs per year on your budget (in reality of course, eat into your capital slowly, and fly much more).
Also, personally, I'd always rather do more flying in a cheaper aeroplane. I used to drink with a chap who flew about 20 hrs PA in his TB20 share, whilst I was flying 50 hrs PA in a PA28-161 share and spending about half what he was, and had about a quarter of the capital tied up. Why he put up with me pointing this out so often I have no idea.
G
I don't, personally, think your profile makes sense for a sole-owned aeroplane. Also, I've learned the hard way that if you own all an aeroplane you get all the flying, but all the effort of looking after it. If, say, you own a quarter, you get as much flying in reality, but only a quarter of the effort of looking after it.
Plus, a large chunk of ownership costs are fixed - hangerage/tie-down, insurance, annual - and money saved sharing these, can be spent on flying (or just not spent!).
As several have said, your budget would buy a big share in a very capable aeroplane, and your budget would then cover a lot of flying. I honestly doubt that below 1/6th share, you'll often notice the other owners are flying it, and personally having owned from 1/2 to 1/20th, I've rarely noticed any other owner wanting use of the aeroplane. 100hrs x 6 pilots touring (and trust me, not everybody will fly it that much) is still only around 50% utilisation.
For example, there's 1/8th of a very nice looking C182 for sale on the web at the moment, £11k, then at your budget of £600/mth, 50ish hrs per year; another advert shows 1/5th of an Arrow IV for similar purchase price and will get you about 40hrs.pa for your budget, a TB9 share advertised in Exeter at the moment will get you about 70hrs per year on your budget (in reality of course, eat into your capital slowly, and fly much more).
Also, personally, I'd always rather do more flying in a cheaper aeroplane. I used to drink with a chap who flew about 20 hrs PA in his TB20 share, whilst I was flying 50 hrs PA in a PA28-161 share and spending about half what he was, and had about a quarter of the capital tied up. Why he put up with me pointing this out so often I have no idea.
G
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Exactly echoing Silvaire's comments. It doesn't have to make absolute financial sense. No hobby ever does. We don't ask that from angling or motocross, so why from aviation?
Think about the guys (and we all know those guys), who buy really fancy sports cars. It doesn't make sense financially and trying to justify it in that way is futile. It adds that fifth element, the unquantifiable umami, so to speak. There's no price on that.
I'm a brand new aircraft owner myself. And they way I look at is this: the annual, the repairs, the service is a price I have to pay to join the club and be an owner. It's a price I have to pay no matter how many hours I fly a year. Obviously, engine funds etc are time dependent, but in a way, no. If you overhaul at TBO, then yes, but there's no legal limit to do so. My engines are unsupported anyway, so for me it becomes an exercise in nursing them along, either by replacing them by surplus on condition ones or overhauling tops. A complete overhaul is cost prohibitive.
So the cost for me is simply fuel and oil, that's how I look at it. And when you look at it that way, flying is rather cheap!
Think about the guys (and we all know those guys), who buy really fancy sports cars. It doesn't make sense financially and trying to justify it in that way is futile. It adds that fifth element, the unquantifiable umami, so to speak. There's no price on that.
I'm a brand new aircraft owner myself. And they way I look at is this: the annual, the repairs, the service is a price I have to pay to join the club and be an owner. It's a price I have to pay no matter how many hours I fly a year. Obviously, engine funds etc are time dependent, but in a way, no. If you overhaul at TBO, then yes, but there's no legal limit to do so. My engines are unsupported anyway, so for me it becomes an exercise in nursing them along, either by replacing them by surplus on condition ones or overhauling tops. A complete overhaul is cost prohibitive.
So the cost for me is simply fuel and oil, that's how I look at it. And when you look at it that way, flying is rather cheap!
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Gentlemen, thank you so much for your input, all of which is very helpful indeed. I was all up for changing my mind and realizing that a share of an aircraft as long as there were not too many people in the group looks like it makes more sense until I got to silvaires comment which suggests why does it have to make sense, after all it is fun and so what if its a silly decision?
I guess the thing for me is probably to try the shared ownership route for a few years and see how I get on, if I fly enough that I could warrant owning my own aircraft I am sure I can over time convert to that.
Very helpful advice thanks indeed
I guess the thing for me is probably to try the shared ownership route for a few years and see how I get on, if I fly enough that I could warrant owning my own aircraft I am sure I can over time convert to that.
Very helpful advice thanks indeed
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Having been in a small group for a while, I would second the opinion earlier about the need to keep some capital for emergent problems.
The strangest things can happen, as well as not so strange things. For example, we had one horror year where we failed to meet our target flying hours by a long way and that meant we were short of income to the degree that we had to put cash into the company to remain solvent.
Also, be careful about who you choose as partners - marry in haste, repent at leisure.
We were all straight with each other, didn't always agree, but always reached a viable consensus.
Not all groups have such a relationship, so check on future partners as thoroughly as you can and check out operating agreements - there are some very experienced people on this forum who know a lot about such things.
From personal experience, I liked being in the group and it had many advantages.
Having been in a small group for a while, I would second the opinion earlier about the need to keep some capital for emergent problems.
The strangest things can happen, as well as not so strange things. For example, we had one horror year where we failed to meet our target flying hours by a long way and that meant we were short of income to the degree that we had to put cash into the company to remain solvent.
Also, be careful about who you choose as partners - marry in haste, repent at leisure.
We were all straight with each other, didn't always agree, but always reached a viable consensus.
Not all groups have such a relationship, so check on future partners as thoroughly as you can and check out operating agreements - there are some very experienced people on this forum who know a lot about such things.
From personal experience, I liked being in the group and it had many advantages.
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Old Dog Time ?
It would be interesting to take a look at the £70K C182, I would take a guess at the usual combination of two or three of the following items high time engine, high time prop, poor paint, very old avionics, dog eared seats, poor AD recording, out of production wheels & brakes ETC.
Having seen in the past peope spend twice as much on the first annual check as on the cost of the aircraft please don't think that it is a buyers market, it is not, peope are not parting with good aircraft because the market won't pay the real value of them.
For example I could find any number of C152's for under £15K but if I wanted one with a new annual that could go and work for a living I would have to pay over twice that number to get a reliable aircraft that was well sorted.
My advice would be to go for a well equiped fixed gear, fixed prop type because you will get more flying for your money in an aircraft that will be in better condition giving you a lower cost of ownership.
All that having been said a few years back a very good C182RG was on the market for £80K due to the tragic death of the owner and was priced for a quick sale, you could get lucky............ but don't count on it!
Having seen in the past peope spend twice as much on the first annual check as on the cost of the aircraft please don't think that it is a buyers market, it is not, peope are not parting with good aircraft because the market won't pay the real value of them.
For example I could find any number of C152's for under £15K but if I wanted one with a new annual that could go and work for a living I would have to pay over twice that number to get a reliable aircraft that was well sorted.
My advice would be to go for a well equiped fixed gear, fixed prop type because you will get more flying for your money in an aircraft that will be in better condition giving you a lower cost of ownership.
All that having been said a few years back a very good C182RG was on the market for £80K due to the tragic death of the owner and was priced for a quick sale, you could get lucky............ but don't count on it!
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I would say join a group even though I own one. I still run mine as a group. It costs lots more to run than I expect even though I get bags of help from an execellent facility at Blackpool called Pool Aviation.
Contributions from other pilots helps keep the costs reasonable and I rarely find it is not available when I want it (it has happened abuout five times in six years).
If you can afford it and have the extra funds available for unexpected issues which I can assure you you can expect to happen then outright ownership is the best of course. There is nothing like leaving your plane as you want it. In mine you end up plugging in items and moving seats and tidying the plane before each flight. Also I hate the hours clocking up but then it massively helps towards the costs. I may have sold the plane by now because of the financial burden if I didnt have these contributions.
Contributions from other pilots helps keep the costs reasonable and I rarely find it is not available when I want it (it has happened abuout five times in six years).
If you can afford it and have the extra funds available for unexpected issues which I can assure you you can expect to happen then outright ownership is the best of course. There is nothing like leaving your plane as you want it. In mine you end up plugging in items and moving seats and tidying the plane before each flight. Also I hate the hours clocking up but then it massively helps towards the costs. I may have sold the plane by now because of the financial burden if I didnt have these contributions.
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The values of some 'better' planes have collapsed in the last year or so however.
Somebody in the USA is now selling a TB21 for $90k. S/N 559, 1986 so younger than the average old can in the UK, 1780hrs on the motor so close to OH (which would cost about $60k) but avionics probably OK.
Owning outright is wonderful and that's what I do, and have often posted a list of the great reasons, but if you can assemble a group of decent reliable honest people that is better because it reduces costs. It is just really hard to find those people, especially in the GA game where almost everybody talks the talk but few walk the walk.
Somebody in the USA is now selling a TB21 for $90k. S/N 559, 1986 so younger than the average old can in the UK, 1780hrs on the motor so close to OH (which would cost about $60k) but avionics probably OK.
Owning outright is wonderful and that's what I do, and have often posted a list of the great reasons, but if you can assemble a group of decent reliable honest people that is better because it reduces costs. It is just really hard to find those people, especially in the GA game where almost everybody talks the talk but few walk the walk.
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It's a good debate of the pros and cons I'm finding interesting to read too.
I've come to a sort of analogy:
I own my house, but it would be cheaper to live in a shared flat.
I don't wake up every morning and think 'I would have to live another 50 years to make those mortgage repayments economical', so I don't really question owning my house.
The problem I've had looking for shares are pretty simple:
You need the aircraft you want available locally (or relocate/travel) - if you like club life, it would be better at your club field than some isolated strip somewhere.
You need to 'fit' in the share group (not always as simple as it sounds)
Many spam can group aircraft **I've seen** are in worse condition than the aircraft I hire - this doesn't inspire one much to the commitment of the group members.
For a group share to make any sense at all over rental there is some 'minimum' hours you have to fly each year. As rental planes usually have an associated maintenance organisation, they are actually quite competitive so it can be difficult to get the numbers to come out in a group share unless you fly an awful lot.
In all I kind of like the idea of coming home to my own house rather than a shared flat where my dinner has been eaten by a flat mate. I think I would also quite like to open a hangar door and see my own aircraft.
There is the option of course of buying and then offering shares yourself if the financial burden is too much, at least then you have some control over who the other group members are and how things are run.
So that leaves me with, if you can find the right share for you go for it, if you can't, jump in and buy it. We all have time I'm sure to become wise afterwards
I've been looking around for 3 years and yet to find a group I was prepared to invest in, though doing a tailwheel conversion opened up a lot more inexpensive options for me, it's not really what you are looking for.
I've come to a sort of analogy:
I own my house, but it would be cheaper to live in a shared flat.
I don't wake up every morning and think 'I would have to live another 50 years to make those mortgage repayments economical', so I don't really question owning my house.
The problem I've had looking for shares are pretty simple:
You need the aircraft you want available locally (or relocate/travel) - if you like club life, it would be better at your club field than some isolated strip somewhere.
You need to 'fit' in the share group (not always as simple as it sounds)
Many spam can group aircraft **I've seen** are in worse condition than the aircraft I hire - this doesn't inspire one much to the commitment of the group members.
For a group share to make any sense at all over rental there is some 'minimum' hours you have to fly each year. As rental planes usually have an associated maintenance organisation, they are actually quite competitive so it can be difficult to get the numbers to come out in a group share unless you fly an awful lot.
In all I kind of like the idea of coming home to my own house rather than a shared flat where my dinner has been eaten by a flat mate. I think I would also quite like to open a hangar door and see my own aircraft.
There is the option of course of buying and then offering shares yourself if the financial burden is too much, at least then you have some control over who the other group members are and how things are run.
So that leaves me with, if you can find the right share for you go for it, if you can't, jump in and buy it. We all have time I'm sure to become wise afterwards
I've been looking around for 3 years and yet to find a group I was prepared to invest in, though doing a tailwheel conversion opened up a lot more inexpensive options for me, it's not really what you are looking for.
Last edited by Conventional Gear; 29th Apr 2011 at 12:46.
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Groups vary. Some are made up of good people with compatible outlooks and compatible and adequate funding abilities. Most are hanging together "ok". And quite a few are falling apart, with some members taking the micky but nobody dares to do anything about it because the setup would fall apart and they would not have any flying.
And be assured that if you are buying into a group, the existing members are not going to advertise existing issues, either personality/behaviour issues or problems with the plane.
100% ownership is great if you can afford it.
And be assured that if you are buying into a group, the existing members are not going to advertise existing issues, either personality/behaviour issues or problems with the plane.
100% ownership is great if you can afford it.
I've been looking around for 3 years and yet to find a group I was prepared to invest in, though doing a tailwheel conversion opened up a lot more inexpensive options for me, it's not really what you are looking for.
If you know what airplane you are looking for, what YOUR requirements are and what YOU want to do, you may well put together a project with a specific airplane in mind (they don't sell that fast today) and then look for people who might want to share or simply buy hours of you. I don't know if the latter is legal in the UK, it is here, as long as you don't make a profit, and heaven knows, not too many who rent airplanes commercially do today
That is how it worked out for me. The flight school which owned mine wanted to orient themselfs differently, the Mooney did not fit their profile at all. So they sold it, but had some pilots who had done the conversion and wanted to continue flying. Right now, I have about 5 active pilots on the airplane, who are invited to fly when I don't need the plane. That arrangement fits perfectly, as it produces hours to reach the 100 hrs/year minimum target, therefore helps with the costs without the problems of a group where everyone is equal. If someone were to misbehave, easy (has not ever happened, but that is it). If I do need the airplane, my apologies but it's mine, so go fly another day. So far, that has worked really well.
I own my house, but it would be cheaper to live in a shared flat.
I don't wake up every morning and think 'I would have to live another 50 years to make those mortgage repayments economical', so I don't really question owning my house.
I don't wake up every morning and think 'I would have to live another 50 years to make those mortgage repayments economical', so I don't really question owning my house.
It is amazing to me how "reasonable" and "logical" people get when it comes to buying airplanes, when they would not waste a 2nd thought at spilling out far more money for other things "everyone" has.... Make your calculations, as you would with a house, a car or a flat, and if it works out for you, then DO IT or end up like many of those old and bitter folks who will never do as much as a trip to Brighton.
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I would argue that owning a simple aircraft, non retractable, fixed pitch isn't much more expensive than owning a new posh import car. So if you really have to justify it for members of your family (or just to yourself), get rid of the Audi S4 RS, get the plane and then bicycle or tube it to your field
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Also I am worried about the 100ll situation, dont want to be left with a pup no one wants!
I'm guessing (as a lowly 26 hour student!) that even if 100ll were removed tomorrow and the engine couldn't be converted to run on mogas or mogas+some additive, worst case would be replace the engine (though with what?!), so the whole aircraft won't be a pup - the airframe & avionics will still work with the same physics after any withdrawal of 100ll as before it!
Any thoughts from you properly knowledgeable guys and girls?
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100LL is not going to disappear anytime soon.
There are too many planes around the world, and in the USA where it really matters, for it to disappear.
I think that eventually a "100UL" fuel will take over. They have already been developed.
At least I hope so, because we don't have any half decent avtur engines. Mr Thielert, ably assisted by Diamond, has thoroughly p*ssed on the diesel bonfire. The Austro engine is too new to be anywhere near proven, the SMA likewise.
We need another 5 years at least to see a decent picture of these engines. We especially need to see a good number of them out of warranty, at which time real problems (if any) will be freely and honestly discussed on the internet, whereas in-warranty the owners keep their mouth shut because if you do your dirty washing in public, the aviation industry cuts you off from factory support (as I well know).
The only other option is a turboprop, which is a great solution but pricey. You start with a Jetprop (PA46 conversion) which new is $1.7M and a good used one is about $1.2M. For $3.2M and about $1.5M you can buy the rather more solidly made TBM700/850 but that is another 2x higher operating cost and being > 2T you pay IFR route charges too. Nobody has successfully made and marketed a "small" turboprop, yet.
Avgas is a real issue for those touring around southern Europe. A lot of the bigger airports are run by idiots who have priced things to push out GA, and as a result their avgas sales have dropped way down, so they stop carrying avgas... so even if you are happy to pay the £200 landing fee because it is only a one-off visit, you can't refuel there. There is a general shortage of avgas airports anyway, especially if you want Customs as well. In some cases a local aeroclub has found out that they can buy avgas in drums for a lot less than the local oil company franchise (there is a lot of money in selling avgas, contrary to what everybody tells you) so they do that and then.... the airport stops selling avgas because there is no demand but.... the aeroclub doesn't sell avgas to visitors (except via a backhander). For these reasons, Diamond looked such a super option for serious European pilots ... until their engines started to pack up.
There are too many planes around the world, and in the USA where it really matters, for it to disappear.
I think that eventually a "100UL" fuel will take over. They have already been developed.
At least I hope so, because we don't have any half decent avtur engines. Mr Thielert, ably assisted by Diamond, has thoroughly p*ssed on the diesel bonfire. The Austro engine is too new to be anywhere near proven, the SMA likewise.
We need another 5 years at least to see a decent picture of these engines. We especially need to see a good number of them out of warranty, at which time real problems (if any) will be freely and honestly discussed on the internet, whereas in-warranty the owners keep their mouth shut because if you do your dirty washing in public, the aviation industry cuts you off from factory support (as I well know).
The only other option is a turboprop, which is a great solution but pricey. You start with a Jetprop (PA46 conversion) which new is $1.7M and a good used one is about $1.2M. For $3.2M and about $1.5M you can buy the rather more solidly made TBM700/850 but that is another 2x higher operating cost and being > 2T you pay IFR route charges too. Nobody has successfully made and marketed a "small" turboprop, yet.
Avgas is a real issue for those touring around southern Europe. A lot of the bigger airports are run by idiots who have priced things to push out GA, and as a result their avgas sales have dropped way down, so they stop carrying avgas... so even if you are happy to pay the £200 landing fee because it is only a one-off visit, you can't refuel there. There is a general shortage of avgas airports anyway, especially if you want Customs as well. In some cases a local aeroclub has found out that they can buy avgas in drums for a lot less than the local oil company franchise
(there is a lot of money in selling avgas, contrary to what everybody tells you) so they do that and then.... the airport stops selling avgas because there is no demand but.... the aeroclub doesn't sell avgas to visitors (except via a backhander). For these reasons, Diamond looked such a super option for serious European pilots ... until their engines started to pack up.
Last edited by IO540; 30th Apr 2011 at 06:57.
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Yes, I am well aware of that one. It's not exactly a "small" plane though, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast. It does look a very nice design, and I have spoken to them about it and seen the inside, etc, but it is not selling and I suspect people are worried about the company going bust (again) and being stuck with an unsupported type certificate. This plane is just too unusual to be ok to run on an unsupported TC.
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Bit of thread drift here!! I don't think our original poster contemplates an Extra 500
Strikes me that £70k + £600 a month gives a huge number of possibilities. The thread started with talk of an "IR machine". I am curious to know what he contemplates exactly as to use an IR machine fully you need an IR! Does the type of flying you are contemplating really involve significant amounts of IFR flying?
What seems generally true is that the majority of pilots fly far fewer hours that they plan to when they buy their dream machine. I have seen some very nice aircaft standing idle as a planned 100 hours per year becomes 10 to 20. That translates into a very high cost of maintenance, particularly on a certified aircraft and £50 per hour at 100 hours becomes £100 + as the annual is still coming out between £3k and £5k per year.
A small well run group is an excellent way of discovering if your lifestyle allows you to fly as much as you plan. The difficulty is in finding that group and then of course you are constrained by what is out there within a reasonable range of where you live.
Aviation is a hobby, not an exercise in home economics and only you can say if you are comfortable with the expenditure, but do keep something in reserve, especially if you are buying outright. I would not worry too much about the future of 100LL but if this is a factor a lower powered engine will be a better bet for a future of 100UL than a high compression 250/300 HP variant.
Strikes me that £70k + £600 a month gives a huge number of possibilities. The thread started with talk of an "IR machine". I am curious to know what he contemplates exactly as to use an IR machine fully you need an IR! Does the type of flying you are contemplating really involve significant amounts of IFR flying?
What seems generally true is that the majority of pilots fly far fewer hours that they plan to when they buy their dream machine. I have seen some very nice aircaft standing idle as a planned 100 hours per year becomes 10 to 20. That translates into a very high cost of maintenance, particularly on a certified aircraft and £50 per hour at 100 hours becomes £100 + as the annual is still coming out between £3k and £5k per year.
A small well run group is an excellent way of discovering if your lifestyle allows you to fly as much as you plan. The difficulty is in finding that group and then of course you are constrained by what is out there within a reasonable range of where you live.
Aviation is a hobby, not an exercise in home economics and only you can say if you are comfortable with the expenditure, but do keep something in reserve, especially if you are buying outright. I would not worry too much about the future of 100LL but if this is a factor a lower powered engine will be a better bet for a future of 100UL than a high compression 250/300 HP variant.